Arthritis
Natural Remedies

Most Effective Natural Remedies for Arthritis

DMSO
Posted by J.Park (United States) on 09/16/2019
5 out of 5 stars

DMSO spray or lotion to affected area to be first choice of Arthritis remedy (whether rheumatoid or osteo). There are plenty of authoritative documentations as to how effective DMSO is. It is surprising that not many people seem to use it. The typical 99.9% is too strong to spray, best skin absorption is 70-80% they say, but one shouldn't use such high concentration since it stings too much. There shouldn't be any rush, I use 40% spray to hip joints (which I have been suffering few years & getting worse), and I saw much improvement in only few days!!! I don't feel much stings with 40% (just add 6 parts of distilled water to 4 parts of 99.9% DMSO, this will HEAT the solution, don't be surprised, this is normal reaction – this is NEVER mentioned in any literature I saw). Some plastic melt in DMSO, so preferably buy DMSO spray bottle. Also don't forget Red/NIR Light Therapy too. This is very effective on arthritis as well as many many body conditions, you will be surprised to find so many health benefits in Red Light Therapy including skin rejuvenation. Again plenty of documentations. Study them. This is NOT UV high frequency light, but low frequency red and beyond NIR (Near Infrared that is invisible & has longer wave length than red).

Dietary Changes
Posted by Rob (Santa Fe) on 01/01/2023

After a year with little salt, no sugar, carbs, night shades, tomato sauce or dairy I ate thanksgiving dinner. The next day I couldn't make a fist in both hands and trigger fingers appeared. I can only say all the sugar and carbs in that meal did me in. I'm now trying to rid my hand pain and it's been a month. Going back to my dietary changes of before. Prior to this those changes had me drop 20 pounds too I just did it for that, but seeing how those food's affected me, it's a small price to pay folks to be pain free. Just hope I haven't damaged my joints!! Food in America is worthless and you wonder why we have all those awful commercials for ailments. Wise up my friends.


Parsley
Posted by Velda P (Calif.) on 04/18/2016
5 out of 5 stars

One tablespoon of dried parsley in a cup of water and drink it daily no missing the daily drinking. Two months later my pain was completely gone.. One year later the swelling was gone . Three years latter still no pain or swelling. I have been taking parsley for five years and will do so for the rest of my life.

Borax
Posted by Piratepete (The Great White North Eh) on 08/10/2020

"I drank four gallons over about a month's time, and nothing. So disappointed." SMH

People need to realize, to be healthy you need to be drinking at least a gallon of pure clean water per DAY! That's 4 liters a day for you Canucks out there... More if you drink coffee or on water pills... I suggest people to not take any pharmaceutical medication because they are ALL poisons.

Pure clean water = distilled water.

I have been drinking distilled water for 6 -7 years now. It is the cleanest water there is. AND no, distilled water does NOT leech essential minerals from the body. They do however remove any non organic matter that doesn't belong in our bodies. Including heavy metals.


Turmeric
Posted by Pj (Seattle, Wa, Usa) on 10/07/2015
5 out of 5 stars

Just two teaspoons of Turmeric per day stopped all my arthritis pain, and allowed the best sleep in years.

Turmeric
Posted by Mama To Many (Tennessee) on 03/31/2017

Dear Robert Henry,

Well, your story about how a family doctor got your father out of a fib is fascinating! My great-grandfather was a doctor in rural NC around 1900 or so. He did house calls. He charged $5 to deliver a baby. Or sometimes he would be paid for his services with a bushel of apples or wheat. Times have surely changed. I never knew him but have seen his accounting books. Amazing.

Regarding cayenne...I love it myself. It has helped my family with strep throat, hemorrhage, poor circulation....among other things....I know it is used as a catalyst and maybe it would do that for turmeric for someone who cannot take black pepper. Apparently, black pepper is used to potentate turmeric because of the piperine in it, which cayenne does not have.

I would love to come up with an experiment to see the difference in how turmeric versus tumeric/black pepper versus turmeric/cayenne affect healing. Maybe some day!

~Mama to Many~


Turmeric
Posted by Mama To Many (Tennessee) on 04/10/2017

I heard a story over the weekend about turmeric and black pepper so I thought I would update this thread.

My friend said that she took turmeric with noticeable results. But when she took turmeric and black pepper it made her feel inflamed.

Obviously turmeric does not need black pepper to work and black pepper isn't for everyone.

A fascinating thing to me about natural treatment is how individual it can be. It is as much an art as a science.

~Mama to Many~


Borax vs. Boron
Posted by Bill (San Fernando, Philippines) on 03/23/2015

Hi Linden...It defeats me why people even bother to buy the boron supplements from the health shops because dosages of 3 mgs to 6 mgs are way to small and it's expensive. You are better to just buy the borax off the internet -- even technical or lab grade borax is dirt cheap and you will get more for your money. Taking 1/4 tspn borax in a liter of water per day means that you are taking 1000 mgs of borax. But if you work out the actual content of boron in the 1000 mgs of borax -- it only comes to about 115 mgs of boron. Similarly women should take 1/8 tspn (or 500 mgs) borax in a liter of water. That works out to a daily dose of only 57 mgs boron per day.

I've been supplementing borax regularly for about 9 years. I now usually just add a pinch of borax(same as a pinch of salt) to my coffee or tea twice a day. I do this because the MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheet) for borax has about the same toxicity level as common table salt. More info on borax for you here.

Best Regards,

Bill


Low Dose Naltrexone
Posted by Chip (Playa Hermosa, Costa Rica) on 09/21/2014
5 out of 5 stars

I have posted my story before. I was turned on to Earthclinic by a retired Pharmacist from Houston. He was adamant that advice from Earthclinic saved his leg while big pharma's solutions only made his condition worse. Unfortunately, I do not what his problem was, however I became an avid reader of Earthclinic as a result of talking to him. I suffered from MS like symptoms due to aspartame poisoning. I have a long post about aspartame in the Artificial Sweeteners section. However, this post is about how I got rid of Arthritis symptoms. It resulted from several posts on the use of LDN (Low-Dose Naltrexone) in the Earthclinic section on MS.

When I first started reading Earthclinic I thought I had MS, in fact 6 different Neurologists all said I had MS. Although my currant Neurologist thought that initially, once she looked at 9 years of MRI's, she told me that I had MS-like damage to my nerves, but I did not have MS. However, prior to that diagnosis, since several posts on Earthclinic talked about using Low Dose Naltrexone (LDN) to successfully treat MS symptoms. I started using it. After 3 months, totally unexpectedly, my arthritis symptoms went away.

I had been taking a strict regimen of supplements that included Fish Oil, Zyflamend and White Willow bark to control the stiffness and pain in my hands; I had had arthritis symptoms for over 10 years. The LDN helped to boost my Immune System, and got rid of the Arthritis symptoms. LDN did not cure it, but as long as I take it, it works. Since I travel frequently I once forgot it and after 4 days without it, the pain and stiffness returned. I have since found from numerous websites that boosting the body?s Immune System with LDN helps it to overcome many autoimmune diseases. One UK website claims that 80% of Arthritis suffers experience relief after taking LDN for from 1 to 12 months. If someone suffers from Arthritis and they can't get rid of it any other way, I strongly recommend LDN.

The website www.lowdosenaltrexone.org explains how it works in detail. Many other sites discuss it as well. It is without a doubt worth looking into for Arthritis as well as other diseases that are affected by your immune system. I use a dosage of 1.5 mg of LDN taken each night at bedtime. The max dose for LDN is 4.5mg, but I have Restless Leg Syndrome and can't take that much without making those symptoms worse. I had to get a prescription to get it and I use Skip's Pharmacy in Boca Raton, FL as the compounding pharmacy.

Note that the lowdosenaltrexone website lists several compounding pharmacies that provide LDN but Dr. Skip has probably the most patients and provides great advice. He told me that even though the MD who wrote the prescription specified 4.5 mg, that I would get better results if I started with 30 days of 1.5mg then 30 more days of 3mg then going to 4.5 mg. Then, when I found out I had problems with the higher doses, he recommended diluting the 4.5mg doses by emptying two 4.5mg capsules into 1.5 cups of distilled water and drinking a quarter cup each night. Then storing it in the refrigerator. I saved a lot of money this way. I have now been using LDN for 18 months and it is still working well.


Wild Oregano Oil
Posted by Daisy (Jacksonville, Florida, U.s.a) on 09/24/2012 9 posts
5 out of 5 stars

Last night I was searching this site for something that might help some really annoying bone and muscle pain I have been having in my right arm. Some of it is arthritic (the wrist) but most of it is tendonitis from overuse and poor typing posture. It seems like once you get tendonitis in a certain place it's forever after ready to spring into recurrence. And for whatever reason, last night both were really, really hurting -- to the point I doubted whether I'd even be able to sleep with my forearm and wrist both aching like that. It hurt even to touch those points.

So I looked here on EC and happened to see this post, and since I already have some oil of wild oregano I decided to try it. I started with the wrist because that's where the arthritis is, rubbing a few drops of olive-oil-diluted wild oregano oil into the skin. Then I wondered if it would help the tendonitis areas too, because of what one of the posts said about its opiate-like qualities, so I rubbed some in there too. I thought I'd smell like a pizza, and I sort of did, but it wasn't that bad.

And within 10-15 minutes, BOTH pains were greatly reduced -- within a half hour almost completely gone. I can't say it was a complete 100% relief, but it was definitely 80% - 90%, and I'll take that any day. What I could barely touch a half-hour earlier I could then press hard on without pain, both the wrist and the worst tendonitis points, and the steady sharp aching was almost completely gone, enough so that I could easily ignore it and go to sleep.

To counter the smell a bit, I rubbed some lavender extract into the same areas (it also has anti-inflammatory properties) and slept like a baby, but the oil of wild oregano had been on my arm for an hour before I added the lavender so I know it works on its own. I'll do the same again tonight, it worked so well!

I would add that if you've never used oil of oregano on your skin before, check your bottle carefully and see whether it's full strength or already diluted. Mine is already diluted; not all are, and if yours isn't you're going to be stinging if you put it on full strength!

Thank you EC, and to the people who posted this lovely remedy as well! (Maybe you could post this in the tendonitis area too; I don't think oil of oregano is mentioned over there. Thanks! )

Turmeric
Posted by Mohayrix (Redneck, California, Usa) on 06/11/2010
5 out of 5 stars

As a holistic practitioner for over 35 years I recently did a very thourough research on Turmeric, known as the Holy Spice in the mid east, cheifly India. I have seen great results for arthritis from Hepatitis C, as a topical mixture for sores and cuts and a host of other ailments. Just took my 2nd 00 cap for today. As it is an astrigent it can also detoxify the body as I have observed with my patients. It is worth studying and there are scientific studies showing the efficacy of Turmeric on several conditions with little interaction with other treatments. I am with you and will take this for the rest of my earthly life. 500 billion blessings of health to all who read this.


Turmeric
Posted by Charles (Saint Cloud, Florida) on 12/31/2007
5 out of 5 stars

I started taking turmeric powder about 2 and a half years ago, after seeing on a famous news show that it was one of the main ingredients in a pill that was able to reduce your antioxidant level to zero. I did a little research and saw there was little Alzhiemers in India, where it is a big part of the diet. I was having a bit of a memory problem at the time. Anyways, after about 3 months of taking a tablespoon a day, I noticed my shoulder pain went away. My doctor had said he could do nothing for it, as it was arthitis and that he had it also. Now I notice that I don't seem too concern about memory and I have regained some interest in reading articles. I have had several, 3, cases of skin cancer in the last year, hopefully its due to the years of living in a tropical climate. I tried to stop taking it a couple of times to see what would happen and my shoulder pain seem to start to come back. So apparently it did not cure it but stopped the pain and I am now able to shoot basketball or any other activity. I put it in water and stir it up and swallow the half a cup very quickly as I do not like the taste. I order it 5 pounds at a time and keep a 10 pound supply on hand. Be careful it stains things yellow.


Ginger
Posted by Suzanne (USA) on 01/18/2007
5 out of 5 stars

I have been taking ginger in capsule form daily now for approximately 2 months. It seems to act as a pain-killer. The relief I get is tremendous and most of the time i am completely pain-free from Arthritis and Osteoporosis of the spine. I recommended it to a friend in the US.

Cayenne
Posted by Yvonne (Wentzville, MO) on 09/16/2006
5 out of 5 stars

I'm 74 have arthritis in my shoulder-can't afford the creams, when I found out the main ingreatent was the same as cayenne pepper, I stared buying hot sauce that is made from aged cayennes, rub it on my shoulder couple times a day, it stains your clothing, but sure helps, and it is a lot cheaper.


Blackstrap Molasses
Posted by Gwynne (Johannesburg, South Africa) on 10/12/2005
5 out of 5 stars

Jan asked if anyone else knew about black strap molosses - the best molosses to use is the Crude Black Strap Molasses - Book to get on Molasses is Cyril Scott ISBN 0 7225 0241 9.


Milk
Posted by Art (California) on 09/29/2022 1507 posts

M to M,

I completely agree with you!

Art


Borax
Posted by Deirdre (CT) on 03/28/2022
5 out of 5 stars

Thought I would share my new borax method with the EC community as it's working so phenomenally well, and fast, I am quite stunned actually. I have been applying to my lower spine where I was having severe tailbone and sciatica the past few months as well as on my hand and knees. No more pain, no stiffness. I actually forgot I had a bad back yesterday! I am only on day 4 of this and started seeing results after the 2nd day. This works much faster than the internal borax method, in my opinion. Plus absolutely no side effects.

Materials:

  • Bottle (I use a 4 oz amber bottle)
  • Borax
  • DMSO (buy on Amazon - 99.99% purity)

Recipe:

  • Fill the bottle with 4 oz hot distilled water.
  • Add 1 teaspoon of borax (20 Mule Team is what I use)
  • Shake vigorously until the borax is dissolved. Make sure to shake vigorously every day before use.

Application Method

  • Shake, and then pour some of your borax solution into the palm of your hand and then apply to any problem areas you want to treat. Make sure to apply to clean skin before you do this because DMSO is a solvent. Right after a shower is a good time.
  • Massage into the skin until most of it has been absorbed.
  • Add a few drops of DMSO to the palm of your hand, rub your hands together, and then apply the DMSO on top of the borax. Massage into the area and then allow the area to dry before you put on any clothes.

Results:

No pain in the hands.. increased flexibility in the joints.. no clicking when I open and close my fingers. (Note: my hands are achy from years of karate as an adult and intense gymnastics as a child.)

Back pain - gone.

Conclusion:

  • One need apply the borax and DMSO solution only once a day to see results. Perhaps twice is better but one time works for me.
  • The targeted application seems to work much faster than drinking an entire liter of borax 5 days a week.
  • I tried Art's borax arthritis topical cream method last year but had a hard time dissolving the borax, so this distilled water method works perfectly for me. Thanks for the original suggestion, Art!

Try this, please. Would love to hear results from other people.


Niacinamide
Posted by Paracelsus (Orlando, FL) on 06/11/2021 47 posts
5 out of 5 stars

I have used Niacinamide (or Niacin) effectively for arthritis pain. When doing so, I usually take 1500mg either 1x or 2x per day for about a week. Then I cut back.

I doubt the 35mg Grace1 mentioned in her 2017 post (posted below) does anything at all. That is far too little. In order for a vitamin (niacin is vitamin b3) to act as a drug, the dosage has to be far greater than what we normally take. I highly recommend all forms of niacin, especially niacinamide, since that does not cause a flush.

Grace1 (Pdx) on 05/05/2017:

"Some doctors in Montreal found Niacinamide to be a potent fungal and aspergilla's killer. It basically kills Candida infections/pathogenic fungi. This of course is something genuis Ted already knew. Niacinamide is especially effective against candida. The human equivalent dose was 35 mg and it was only administered only once. A second dose of Niacinamide was given 8 hours later. However, even a single dose was effective. While this dose is on the high end for niacinamide, for most people it would still fall under 3g, which is what mainstream medicine officially considers the upper safety limit for niacinamide. Niacinamide can cure Candida infection with a single dose. I think taking caprylic acid a before to first dissolve biofilm and then take Niacinamide and I also took two a dissolved aspirin in a glass of water and took it with the niacinamide this was a strongly effective way to go after it. Of course the obvious stuff which is be on the anti-fungal diet, helps and expect a die off so do gentle detoxification to assist the body in the process of clearing and healing." https://www.earthclinic.com/cures/candida13.html#niacinamide_185779


Vitamin C
Posted by Michael (New Zealand) on 12/09/2018

Hello Alfredo of Texas.

It was very interesting to hear about your success with Vitamin C for the treatment of your Arthritis.

Vitamin C and MSM together have been recommended by some, as they supposedly work in synergy to bring relief to sufferers. Some C's are easier on the stomach than others by the way-check that one out- and MSM CAN take a bit of getting used to.

Of course, what works for some does not always work for others, as a quick perusal of the feed-back on this Site will quickly inform you.

My personal recent success for aching joints has been as a consequence of taking one or two Magnesium amino acid chelate 150mg tablets per day. They worked a treat and quickly too!! Magnesium Chloride LIQUID also helps me. Magnesium is needed by a vast array of bodily processes and without sufficient (most Americans are deficient in it anyway, for various reasons) then it can make life pretty miserable. Also, it is a very cost-effective remedy. What's not to like?

Gosh, I was so relieved, as I was in the midst of having to get through many DIY / handyman jobs at the time and I was struggling.

However, stick with what works for you and please keep us posted, especially if you need more help with the arthritis. The "Arthritis Club" is one of the largest in the world by the way - "You are not alone", as they say.

Cheers from Down Under.

Michael


MSM
Posted by John S. (Suffolk, England) on 11/03/2018
5 out of 5 stars

People may be interested in the history of Dimethyl Sulfoxide, MSM or methylsulfonylmethane and the disappearance of the symptoms of arthritis amongst workers at the paper mills. Also, having had your same problem in the feet, how it has, now, completely disappeared since I supplemented with MSM, to the point where I can down a tub of it and the pain stays gone. The last tub I had was two months ago. Still no problems.


Magnesium
Posted by Jane (Maine) on 10/13/2018
5 out of 5 stars

Magnesium for arthritis:

I use magnesium oil on my fingers and hands every night and have never had my fingers lock up since. Plus it is quite a sedative.

Dietary Changes
Posted by Cabeau (Blaricum, Netherlands) on 05/10/2018
5 out of 5 stars

Relation of Nightshades to Arthritis:

I have tried this 'cure' with good results. It is hard to remove all nightshades but you notice when you have had some the next day (pain). Remove all foods of the nightshade family for six weeks and you will know! There is a link with vitamin d3 (sunlight) and consuming nightshades. Resource: http://noarthritis.com/research.htm


Dietary Changes
Posted by Kathryn (Wisconsin) on 07/17/2017
5 out of 5 stars

A lot of arthritis pain is caused by poor diet.

I used to really be a junkfood junkie and it took a long time for me to be willing to eat real food but now that I am I feel much better. In addition to cutting out everything that isn't real food you might try going off of eggs, dairy, because that is the culprit in many situations. I hope you find what is causing the inflammation and get to feeling better real soon.

Chanca Piedra
Posted by Waltz (India) on 12/21/2016

Hi, What was the dosage for Chanca Piedra that you used? I have just started using it for my father for his bone spur and arthritis too and using 1000mg twice a day. Regards


Organic Sulfur
Posted by Robert Henry (Ten Mile , Tn) on 11/15/2016

ARETE,,,,,,,, you may be right, but I do not understand what you mean by organic MSM. I will tell you a wild story that gives credence to your position. This is a story of what happens when a novice gets involved and does not understand why purity is important.

As a freshman in '54 at Ga Tech, we had to make salt peter in our chemistry lab. We all know what this compound does to a male. We had a 4 man suite and my roommate was a 6' 4" kid from Texas. He carried a switch blade in his jeans watch pocket. He played the "BAD ASS" role.

My girlfriend had mailed me some cookies. I took my impure lab salt peter and put it on these cookies and left them on my desk. The next morning my suite mates asked me what was on those cookies because Tex ate some and became sick as a dog, throwing up, etc. That scared my mule, but not near as much as when Tex came in that afternoon, opened his knife, stuck it to my throat and told me, " Bobby, never do that again ". I was sweating bullets. That stupid stunt sent me to school that stays with me today....62 years later.

So you are right in that you should have the purist product available. Having said this, we take a 100% pure MSM made for horses and buy it from the farmers Co-op. If you want the best MSM possible I suggest Jacob Labs. Dr Jacob has passed, but his children are still running his company.

I wish you well. =======ORH========


Flax Oil and Cottage Cheese
Posted by Raymond (Cheshire) on 09/28/2021

You combine the cottage cheese with Greek low fat yogurt and flax seeds and flax/linseed oil in a blender you can then add fresh fruit (Berries banana apple any fruit really. or use a low fat flavoured yogurt or honey to flavour the mix.


Flax Oil and Cottage Cheese
Posted by Michael (New Zealand) on 07/26/2021

Greetings again Gracie,

It was great to hear that you are enjoying some relief from your Arthritis pain! The Flax Seed Oil and Cottage Cheese remedy is interesting. I had heard it being touted as a possible remedy on this Site a while ago but was unsure if many people had experienced relief, or if it was merely a "one off" for one person. Do you take yours first thing in the a.m. on an empty stomach I wonder?

Currently, I am quite well and think it might have something to do with the fact that I am taking extra care to not strain my muscles, ligaments and tendons that otherwise can cause me great strife if I don't watch out for "wrong" movements.

Possibly due to soft-tissue, calcium build-up over the years and I am aware of Ted's advice on this little-known condition.

I try to be regular with Magnesium and Joint capsules one day and Fish Oil tablets the next day. I also take a drizzle of Flax OR Hemp seed oil with my evening meal every evening almost without fail.

In addition, I have almost become a monk by resorting to only one meal per day. This helps to eliminate my craving for bread and cereals which are known to be possible triggers for arthritis. Our evening meals are gradually creeping away from meat and we are lucky to get quite a few of our fresh vegetables from my garden, which gets a little more productive, imaginative and broad-based every year. This year's new vegetable is Kohl Rabi no less!

I am certainly not obese but long to drop a few kilos, which I figure are surplus to requirements and not fit for purpose. Being overweight can lead to harsh health problems down the track as you know. As we grow older, weight loss becomes more of a challenge for some reason.

I have never been a fan for diets until recently and do not relish the thought of counting the calories all the time so I thought I would "out Mosely" Dr. Michael Mosely and go the whole hog and restrict my meals to only one per day and only eat during an eight hour window.

If the weight comes off (maybe six kilos in my case), then that should ease the pressure on the joints. What's not to like?

Early days yet.

As I have had some experience with following Dr. Michael's 5/2 (or whatever) Diet previously, I don't constantly obsess about food throughout the day, so long as I don't THINK about it!

Also, my other radical move, and one which I am hoping you might try, is to take the "Golden Sultanas in Gin Remedy" for a month to see what happens. For this one you need to refer to this Site and ensure that the sultanas are indeed golden and that your tipple is actual, London, juniper gin.

I strongly suspect that they are doing me some good, though you and I will possibly never be completely pain free, a bit of relief is something sincerely to be desired!

Lastly, I have been upping my Vitamin C and MSM intake. All in all, this is about as much as I can handle on a regular basis.

I have thought long and hard about the above for some considerable time now and am now trying to be more disciplined about implementing the regime regularly.

Now for a cautionary tale:-

I realize that New Zealand comes in for some good press these days but we have some horrible statistics actually!! Highest youth suicide rate in the World for instance! Also, we are the third in the world for obesity!!

Number one is the U.S.A. and no. two is Mexico. According to our local paper, New Zealanders (remember there are only five million of us) collectively put on 2,819 tonnes in weight over the past twelve months! Yikes! Those who gained weight, increased their weight by almost ten times the normal weight gain for adults apparently. Covid has changed the way people ate and moved according to the study by "Exercise NZ". We are digging our own graves with a spoon! In the USA, life expectancy is now trending downwards for the first time in a long time!!

Lastly, my Wife (who is a trifle cynical about the amount of time I devote to this Site - bless her) finally succumbed and asked for advice for her sore eyes that had been that way for some time. I suggested wiping some diluted Baking Soda / Sodium Bicarbonate - a quarter of a teaspoon in a third of a glass of water I think, on her eyelids and swallowing the rest when finished. Relief within thirty six hours or so. I am back in her good books again thanks to E.C.!!

Cheers from Down Under


Borax
Posted by Odis (Louisiana) on 12/28/2015
1 out of 5 stars

The borax cure didn't do me any good at all. My joints are still as stiff as they always were. I followed the recommended Earth Clinic cure, but didn't help. I drank four gallons over about a month's time, and nothing. So disappointed.

Borax
Posted by Lisa D. (Dallas) on 06/28/2020

I've been taking borax for about a year and although I have not seen great benefits for arthritis relief, one thing it has helped is my teeth sensitivity. I'm not giving up!



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