Back Pain
Natural Remedies

Top Natural Back Pain Remedies for Holistic Relief

Hydrotherapy
Posted by Jenny (Brisbane, Australia) on 07/13/2013

To the lady with disc degeneration and others considering surgery. Try hydrotherapy and all conservative methods as if you have surgery there will be other side effects. I had a disc bulge at L4/5 and a cyst grew in the fluid that accumulated which grew onto my nerve roots which resulted in excruciating pain down the right side of my body.

My GP said the it would be a relatively minor operation to remove the cyst and referred me to a surgeon. By the time I went to see the surgeon I had to go in by ambulance on a stretcher as walking and sitting were too painful.

I told the surgeon to just remove the cyst but he said it would come back and scared me into doing a more major operation, I. E. removal of the discs and replacement with a cage. My facet joints above and below the implant are now deteriorating because of the implant - this is proven by the before and after MRI. I believe his motivation was not my future welfare but money, the major operation being much more expensive. There are not many Drs who take the hypocratic oath any more and mean it - I. E. first do no harm... its big business.

I am now going to try strenghten the muscles in my back by doing specific exercises and do water walking in a heated pool. As well as this I will try ACV and take Boron and anything else that has worked for other people because I have now realised I must take responsbility for my own health and not rely on a Dr to do the right thing.

Surgery should be a last resort. I also have a failed left total knee replacement - doesn't bend properly because the surgeon cut through my quadriceps muscle and I couldn't do the physio afterwards due to the pain of the severed muscle.

I have only had the two surgeries at age 65, both in the last 7 years and both with problems. I will never go under the knife again if I can help it.

Try everything else, and as a very last resort only, consider surgery, and if you do so find a surgeon who treats the patient, not his bank balance.

Jenny


John Sarno Book
Posted by Joy (Battleground , Wash) on 05/01/2013

Yes, I have had shingles at least 5 times, and one episode set off the nerves on my left rib and couldn't wear anything tight on it for over two years. As I wrote in my post... Pick your illness... to help others because John Sarno called his illness bluff and overcame by perseverance and study.

I have found my answers and overcome all but two huge liver cysts (autoimmune), the teeth need made NEW. I read a LOT. 5-8 hours a day and I don't feel very intelligent but I am determined. Nerve pain is excruciating...

I encourage you to read the work of Dr. Batmanghelidj. Watercure.com... and Carolyn Dean, the miracle of magnesium, and read about coconut oil, since I have come to believe it heals the body teeth to rectum.... Get a good multi mineral and milti vitamin and some omegas and GO SLOW VERY SLOW. SO YOU DON'T HAVE TO BE IN AGONY. You can overcome too. I found one of my answers after much search and trial on 4-27-13.. YAY :)

The body will heal given the right ingredients at the right time and I am proof.
- 1-2 cups water 1/2 hour before food
- Eat normal meal with coconut oil in food with supplements of magnesium citrate plus multi mineral and mutli vitamins and omegas and folic acid, betafood, sea salt in diet every meal
- 1-2 cups water 1/2 hour before next meal,
- Eat normal with magnesium citrate and multi mineral and betafood, coffee is a weakness so I drink some water between meals
- 1-2 cups water 1/2 hour before next meal
- Eat normal with betafood, some coffee

I also add yogurt, cranberry and garlic for intestinal health... May your JOY BE FULL


Tailbone Pain Remedies
Posted by Joy (Battleground, Wash) on 03/14/2013

Yes, Tailbone pain really sucks. If it is overwhelming get in the tub with some epson salt and soak , Take a large glass or two of water in there and drink it while you soak, I like to take an apple with me and put sea salt on it and eat while I soak and drink. The body signals get tricked by the water into thinking the pain is coming from a larger area and the signals get diminished.

Get a core ball (65 cm) to sit on to take the pain off the bone , you don't have to fill the ball too full and you sink into it as a cushion. You can increase muscle once you adjust to the core ball by doing some slow movements on it. My core is tightening up more with each passing day.

I ruptured L-5 and 4 3 2 were bulging ... Pain in the pattootie really sucked!

Sleep with a pillow under your legs near your rear to take pressure off the lower spine. I wrap a gel pack that is frozen in a dish towel and ice the spine in bed or sometimes a recliner to stop any inflammation pain.

Constipation can make spinal issues worse, Magnesium citrate -might help and I love coconut oil for improved overall health


Multiple Remedies
Posted by Niasan (Charlotte, NC) on 10/02/2012
★★★★★

Hello EC supporters... I am not even 40 years old yet and I suffer from occasional back pain that my chiropractor has diagnosed as early signs of arthritis. I also suffer from chronic sciatic nerve pain in one leg. We attribute the onset to the constant sitting at work, in my car or at school at night. The first thing I did was try to get moving as much as possible and avoid the urge to sit when possible. Then I pulled up EC to find out what Ted and the rest of you were doing about your pain.

I was happy to find out the my trusty ACV with baking powder might do the trick. I immediately started on a regime of the following:
* 1 Tblsp ACV
* 6oz Boling Filtered Water
* 1/4 teasp Baking Soda (check expiration date)
* 1 teasp raw Local Honey (if possible)
* 2oz Unsweet Fruit Juice (I prefer unfiltered Apple)

Directions:

Add baking soda to boiling filtered water and let it fizzle. Once the fiz is over, add your AVC and stir. Add honey and juice (juice is optional). Stir until cool enough to drink. Sip over 30-45 min on an *empty stomach*.

It tastes really yummy!

2 weeks ago I started experiencing low back pain and pain in my sciatic nerve on my leg. The pain was horrible. I could not sit in one position for long, laying down was uncomfortable and moving from sitting/laying to standing was very painful. I made 2 visits a week to my chiropractor and he seem to make it better for a couple of hours and then I was back to lots of pain.

Like I said above, I logged onto EC and started the recipe above immediately. I started it mid-day and again at night to get the process going.

I also started walking at lunch time for about 25 mins and running again in the evenings. (Movement felt 100 x better than standing still) At first the walking and running was great until I had to go back to sitting. After 3- 4 days of moving more and drinking my ACV tea in the mornings - I started to notice a tremendous difference. I could sit and stand up without grunting and I could sit for long periods w/o getting stiff. Now 7 days later, I feel 95% better. I still get a little stiff if I don't move around at least every 20 minutes BUT I truly believe the ACV tea drink helped to resolve my pain. WHY? Only GOD in heaven and Ted knows. :-).

Other supplements I am taking:
* Evening Primerose Oil caps (2-3 /day)
* Flax Seed Oil cap (2/ day)
* Lecithin cap (2-3/ day)
* L-Lysine (2/ day)
* Tumeric/Blackpepper/Cayenne Pepper Caps (4/day)

(the tumeric caps were homemade using vegetarian capsules) - -1 cup tumeric / 1-2 Tbsp black ground pepper / 1/4 cup cayenne pepper - - mix and fill capsules. Take 4 per day with meal or beverage. It may upset an empty stomach.

Helps with so many things like, Blood pressure, inflammation, blood circulation, clear skin, diarrhea, aids digestion and cayenne helps stop a heart attack or stroke (but medical attention is still needed)

Enjoy and I look forward to your feedback!

Toodles ~


Coconut Oil
Posted by Baldev (Mumbai, Maharashtra, India) on 09/06/2012 185 posts

Hi Morgan, I can appreciate your problem. I would like to suggest you to try Magnesium Oil, it will surely help you and if possible you can mix DMSO 80% in the ratio of 50:50 with Magnesium Oil and just apply on the area where pain is. It has been used successfully and has earlier been reported on this site. Baldev


Dowager's Hump
Posted by Catherine (Wellington, New Zealand) on 03/18/2012

Check for B12 levels, methylcobalamin in sublingual drops is good.. Adelle Davis ascribed bent over posture in older people caused by b12 deficiencies. Happens to vegetarians as they don't eat red meat. You can check out the relationship between b12 and stooped posture on internet.


Atlas Alignment, Rolfing
Posted by Cateye (Melbourne, Vic., Australia) on 10/24/2011
★★★★★

My mother, aunt, great-aunt, sister and I have this issue. My mother calls it her witches hump.

I thought I was stuck with it, I always stood and sat with my neck jutting forward as if unable to straighten. It looked gross, 'slovenly' in photos.

I suspect it is a physiological problem caused by injury, fluoride/excess calcium-on-a-genetic-pattern combo and other damage compounded by psychology.

For the last ten years I've been trying to manage and cure my back pain, and I've recently made huge *HUGE* leaps towards cure. I've never felt so strong or so pain-free (and mentally calm) as the last six months or so since I had my atlas aligned. I wrote the speil under the 'scoliosis' heading too, because it seems to have corrected the twist between my shoulders.

But the hump has disappeared altogether. I'm 38 and really thought I'd turn in to the classic, brittle, wisp of a British Lady Crone figure by 55-60yrs... And was well on the way. Now I see myself as a staunch old lady with an imposing presence. : )

The most dramatic change was having my atlas aligned. SUCH a dramatic thing I can't stress it enough. The other is to find a genuine 'Rolfer', also known as 'structural integration' practioner, who essentially looks at where your body is going wrong and irons out the issues over ten sessions. I heard it was called 'The Rolls Royce of Massage' before I'd tried it, and I certainly agree now. I can't go back to budget massage. Too annoying realising these people don't know what they're doing and you're paying them to do it.

Anyhoo, my two cents. Atlas alignment is brilliant. So is Rolfing.

Best.


MSM
Posted by Francisca (Michelbach-le-bas, Alsace, France) on 04/01/2011

Christine, Canada, what a great idea concerning the belly dance classes, also because I feel like my lower back muscles have gone down hill, like they don't support me anymore when I bend down, the only problem is that I have never heard of belly dance classes here in France. We live in a quite rural location. I did buy a hula hoop but completely forgot to use it, maybe that might help? I am so fed up of having back pain... it makes me feel like an old woman and at 53 I am not that old yet..........

As far as MSM goes I am now trying a drink with MSM, Condroitin, Glucosamin and blueberry juice but so far nothing seems to help. To be honest I am at a point in my life that supplements don't seem to affect me in any way, no matter which combinations I try.


Inversion Table Therapy
Posted by Deirdre (Earth Clinic) on 09/07/2010
★★★★★

Ok, I've written on Earth Clinic before about the absolute wonders of an inversion table for neck and shoulder pain. Now I am here to tell you it's my #1 remedy to also get rid of low back pain.

I started to have chronic low back pain in August, which appeared to get worse with each new day. We had folded up the inversion table in the guest room a while back and I had basically forgotten about it for a number of months. I tried a number of remedies listed on the site, as well as massage and acupuncture. Nothing helped! Finally I remembered our inversion board (d'uh!) and took it out. I hung upside for about 3 minutes and 12 hours later, about 7 minutes more. The second time my back "popped" in 3 places as soon as I went to 90 degrees. The next day, I kid you not, my excruciating back pain was gone, my posture much improved, and my brain clearer & sharper than ever. I can't believe it was this easy. Chronic back pain gone in 10 minutes. I continue to hang upside at least once a day on the inversion board for 3 - 10 minutes and... yippee! no back pain. I HIGHLY recommend this for low back pain.

Water
Posted by Deirdre (Atlanta, Ga, Usa) on 03/26/2010
★★★★★

I have linked an occasional sudden onset of lower back pain to my kidneys. I have discovered two things that will cause my lower back to suddenly start to ache.

1. Dehydration. I tend to drink a lot of caffeinated black tea during the day and probably not nearly enough water to make up for the dehydrating tea. Occasionally my lower back will start to ache if I've had too many cups of tea, which is my signal to hydrate quickly! If I drink several glasses of water over the course of an hour, my lower back pain will go away within an hour or two.

2. Certain supplements. I bought vitamin d3 made from lanolin last week and started back on 8,000 a day after throwing out my d-3 that contained cod liver oil (see my post on the vitamin d page). However, my kidneys aren't liking the lanolin! Again, a sudden onset of lower back pain about an hour after taking the d3. It took longer for my back pain to disappear this time. ... at least 12 hours or more with lots of water. I tested the supplements 3x, with a few days in between, and each time got back pain. Yikes! A good kidney cleanse is in order. Lisa, got any good juicing recipes for the kidneys?!

Eliminate Dairy
Posted by Boblack (Germantown, MD) on 07/20/2009
★★★★★

I have experienced bad back pain ever since junior year of high school where during a heavy lifting session I injured my back. After spending a lot of money on drugs and physical therapists, I can truly say nothing works better than just eliminating diary from my diet, sleeping on the floor, and doing several ab exercises. I have been doing these three things for the last two months and have noticed a significant reduction in my lower back pain. For those of you who complain they can enjoy the favorite breakfast foods without milk I suggest trying rice or soy milk or If you don't care like me just use water.


Ball Point Pen Technique
Posted by Anonymous (Wroclaw, Dolnoslaskie, Poland) on 02/04/2012

I don't believe that it's because of muscles, they don't suddenly become strong. As Teresa said, it's because of unlocking lymphatics, or because of fixing misplaced disks.


Ball Point Pen Technique
Posted by Bm (New Zealand) on 12/29/2015

Could be you are stretching your hamstrings. Tight hamstrings can cause lower back pain. Clever to use the marks.


Stretching
Posted by Donald (Houston, Texas) on 12/15/2008
★★★★★

I have found that the best way to relieve lower back pain is to do early morning stretching. After one week of this simple exercise, lower back pain is gone:

1. Start by lying flat on your back on the floor or a hard flat surface.

2. Lift your right knee up and forward touching your chin or moving the knee as close as possible to the chin.

3. Hold you right knee up to your chin with both hands and stay in that position for at least 15 seconds.

4. Do the same thing with the left knee back and forth for about 20 minutes.

5. Relax the body and the lower back pain will be gone in a few days.

Blessings to you!

Magnesium
Posted by Helen (Beirut, Lerbanon) on 03/30/2008
★★★★★

Thanks for earth clinic and for Ted, my daughter has Scoliosis and she is suffering from back pain ,I'm giving her Magnesium 250 mg daily ,since it stopped her pains she is taking 500 mg daily ,it cured her pains ,thanks Ted but I want to know if the dose is too much for her ,she is 13 years old.

Magnesium
Posted by Joyce (Joelton, TN) on 04/01/2008 495 posts

Response to Helen of Beirut, Lebanon 3/30/08:

Hi Helen, I'm not Ted but I can answer your question about the magnesium your daughter is taking. If she is getting too much magnesium it quickly lets you know because you get diarrhea from it and nobody needs a doctor to tell them when they have diarrhea, do they?

The lovely part of this is that magnensium has lots of function in the body and it is also one of the minerals our modern day junk/fast food diets leave us short on. To learn what this magnesium deficiency causes, I urge everyone to research EXCITOTOXINS on line and pay particular attention to anything from Russell Blaylock. James South also has a very informative and easy to follow on them.

The two major excitotoxins that our foods are laden with are monosodium glutamate and aspartame.

MONOSODIUM GLUTAMATE AND ASPARTAME
ARE NOT JUST FOUND IN ASIAN STIR-FRIED FOODS.
They are found in all processed foods in all cultures.

We can protect ourselves from a lot of this by learning what names they hide them under (ingredients list) and leaving those on the grocery shelf. It is not possible to omit MSG found in our vaccines to protect us from things such as measles, mumps, polio, etc.

To protect ourselves and our families, we must also know some things that can block absorption of MSG and aspartame. Mike Adams interview (available on line) with Dr. Russell Blaylock is very informative and should be fairly easy to follow for most people. In this he mentions that a lot of monosodium glutamate damage to our brains are found to also be accompanied by a magnesium deficiency!
James South quotes a Dr. Mildred Seelig, a noted magnesium expert, calculated that a minimum of 8 mgms. of magnesium per kilogram of body weight are needed daily to prevent cellular magnesium deficiency (560 mgm day needed for l54 pound adult). Our Western world diets usually supplies only l75-275 mgm/day, about 1/2 of the amount needed.

Dr. Blaylock, in his interview with Mike Adams, also mentions other MSG blockers such as amino acids (leucine, isoleucine and lysine), silimarin, curcumin and ginkgo biloba, and most of the flavonoids.

Dr. Blaylock only talks about what excitotoxins do to the brain & central nervous system! Reading up on Metabolic Syndrome X (which orthox medicine now calls insulin resistance will tell you what these same excitotoxins do the rest of the body. Have fun reading.

So Helen, keep giving that daughter the magnesium to protect her from the above and don't worry about too much unless she develops diarrhea - if she does just reduce the amount.


Stretching
Posted by G. Michael (Reading, PA) on 12/05/2007
★★★★★

The Lord is having me write a book on natural cures. I suffered with lower back pain for over 30 years. This was unnecessary suffering and occurred because I didn't know what I am about to tell you. Have you ever seen children with lower back pain? I haven't. Therefore, lower back pain is life-style induced, meaning the muscles that we used constantly in our youth simply atrophy and then one day our back goes out. We take pills or go to a chiropractor for relief. Chiropractors do a great job but if you spend about 5 minutes a day doing stretching exercises your back pain will vanish forever, unless you have a catastrophic injury. On the floor with a mat or on your bed you can do these exercises. Pull your knee to your chest, hold for ten seconds, then release. Repeat with the other knee. Next grab your leg above the knee and point your toes toward the ceiling, stretching your hamstring. Follow with the other hamstring. Doing your hamstrings is probably the most iomportant exercise in protecting your back. Next, pull both your knees together to your chest. Next, get on your hands and knees and do the catback, pulling your chin into your chest and arching your back like a cat. Next, lie on your stomach and act like your a sky-diver raising your arms and legs simultaneously. Next, get a chair and put both of your feet on the outside of the legs. Take both hands together and touch the floor with your fingertips next to your heel. Repeat with the other heel. Finally do some crunches-start off with 10 and increase to how many that you feel like doing Remember for all the exercises, except for the crunches, that you should hold each stretch for 10 seconds. All this takes about 5 minutes to do and if you do them faithfully you will find that your back pain will vanish. Praise The Lord! Once your back feels normal continue to do the exercises at least every other day for the rest of your life, or the same weaknesses will reappear and you will be back where you started.

Stretching
Posted by Wellspruce (Juneau, Ak, Usa) on 02/19/2013
★★★★★

Thanks for your post. I should have mentioned in my earlier post today on hyaluronic acid (HA) that yes stretching I believe has helped me far more than chiropactors and certainly far more than the medical establishment, still paying the multi thousands I was charged by hospital and several "specialists" for xrays 18 months ago. It's ungodly the abuse we suffer at the hands... well, I'll get back to the subject.

Anyway, I designed several back exercises, for lower disc, the L discs bulge, that don't require my laying on floor or even bed. I stand at the V of my kitchen counter, settling my weight on hands and arms, and while completely relaxing my back and leg, dangle the leg back and forth for a minute or so, both legs. Then I bend knee and dangle another minute or so both legs. When I do this, feeling and warmth RUSH all the way down legs and to sole of foot. I do this every time I enter the kitchen, several times a day so that at the end of the day I've put in five to ten minutes total. Doing just before bedtime also helps you sleep better.

I'd be interested in trying your exercises also. Thanks for posting.


Apple Cider Vinegar
Posted by She (Virginia, United States) on 01/18/2014

Maybe it is having a detoxing effect on your body? I'm not a Dr. but do know that when you start to rid your body of toxins it goes thru a withdrawal period. Try eliminating dairy and wheat and see if that helps.


Coconut Oil
Posted by Khristina (The Bronx, New York) on 05/16/2007
★★★★★

I had back pain that was constant. I ate some coconut macroon cookies and my back pain was gone. At first I didn't know that coconut was good for anything, but I found it quite curious that my back pain was suddenly gone after having ate those cookies. I reseached and found that coconut is used in cures. So now I use coconut oil in everything. Especially if back pain comes up in conversation, I say 'take coconut oil or get the cookies'!


Borax
Posted by lorettta (chandler az) on 11/13/2022

Scott, how much borax are you taking?


Horsetail Extract
Posted by Marilyn (Long Beach, CA) on 03/04/2020
★★★★★

I have osteopenia, some scoliosis, whiplash injury to neck and back. Latest thing I've tried is horsetail extract. Read a big 13 page article in Well Being Journal a couple of years ago that I found online about a French researcher and his beliefs about horsetail extract being better for your bones than calcium. I took 6 extract caps a day for 3 or 4 weeks and felt a difference in strength of my back. They say to take the extract off and on -- a couple/few weeks on then off. I now take one or 2 caps a day along with my other minerals and supplements.

Well Being Journal article entitled Strong Bones or Osteoporosis by Earl Staelin re horsetail extract research better for bone building than calcium.


Egoscue Method
Posted by G (Oregon) on 10/25/2019
★★★★★

I suffered an injury over 30 years ago which resulted in years of crushing pain in my lower back and hips and stiffness and pain throughout my entire body from misalignment. I have tried everything from yoga, Kriya yoga, pilates, chiropractic, osteopathy, massage, foam rollers, coconut oil, hyralauric acid....you name it. Some of these worked for a short while, but what never disappeared was the awkward feeling and stiffness from being misaligned. The only thing which finally worked was the Egoscue Method. The first day I felt a shift. The crushing pain vanished. Even much of stiffness was gone - the feeling of a body so misaligned it was fighting itself just to stand upright. I am only a few days in, but everything feels totally different. I cannot remember what it was like not to drag my body around kicking and screaming day after day, year after year. I am excited to rediscover freedom from pain and mobility again.

EC: The Egoscue Method, founded in 1978 by Pete Egoscue, focuses on a series of exercises and stretches to correct misalignments in the musculoskeletal system.


Cupping Therapy
Posted by Alex (Thessaloniki, Greece) on 05/21/2018
★★★★☆

I've just tried cupping. After severe back pain and not being able to walk for two days I have no longer severe pain in the nerve but even after many days my muscles in the lower back and my glutes ate very tight and with spasms sometimes if I get up fast.

Buying the cupping kit on ebay is cheap. I bought the one that the pump hasn't got a long plastic tube. I put some coconut oil on my lower back for better suction. I also put some coconut oil on the joints betweenthe pump the and the cups in order to enter and eject the cups easily. I definetly felt my muscles and the area being pulled off and some relaxation and a pleasant feeling afterwards but I need more testing and repeating the methods more days. I cupped for 10 minutes. If suctions leaves some marks on the skin they will dissapear in 2-3 days.

Turmeric
Posted by Alex (Thessaloniki, Greece) on 05/14/2018
★★★★☆

The right dosage of turmeric and my results from biomagnets and stones bracelet:

I took turmeric for two days with no results but the mistake was mine. I only took a tip of a teaspoon without diluting it twice a day. The time I got a whole teaspoon diluted in less than half a glass of water it worked. I had also eaten something oily before in order for the turmeric to desolve better. The back pain became noticeably less in less than an hour and my mobility increased.

Wearing a biomagnets bracelet did absolutely nothing for my back pain. Some suggest a copper bracelet instead (made the skin absorbs Cu atoms) and some others suggest strong magnet exactly in the area of trouble. (I know how to find the "biological negative" of a magnet.


Magnets
Posted by Alex (Thessaloniki, Greece) on 05/14/2018
★★★★☆

I should have put five stars but I didn't have much time to experiment about the truth of magnet therapy. My bracelet with small magnets failed completely to to any good to my acute back pain but after reading this

https://www.earthclinic.com/remedies/magnet-therapy2.html

I decided to put a very strong magnet about 1cm in diameter exactly where the root of my problem was in my back. I was careful with the polarity. Ted (Bangkok, Thailand) explains it very well in page one of my above link. I had already a biomagnetic bracelet so the pole that repelled the magnets on the bracelet was the bio-North. In the first ten minute of application I felt some instances of big pain as an electric shock exactly at the problematic area but after a while there was a permanent and noticeable reduce in pain and tension in the muscle. I decided to wear it for hours. I had stabilized the strong neodymium magnet on my back with tape for injuries. The funny thing is that I felt some leftover pain at the other side of my lower back (the left one), the area which was far away from the magnet but also affected with pain and muscle spasm. I will definetly buy some strong neodymium magnets (>=1000 gauss) and self-experiment again.


Magnetic Field Therapy
Posted by Janet (In Indiana) on 05/30/2017

ORH I am looking at the possibility of buying the PEMF system. I have not read Body Electric yet. You mention a book you are reading. If you mentioned the title I may have overlooked it. From $70 to $9000. I am having trouble even understanding the essential difference.
Our daughters ankle injury is my focus. Her Dr. refers to is as a highly unusual break. He feels that she has healed as much as she can. I know we can break some boundries he is not even contemplating. Since the night of her accident the most he has had to offer is predicting arthritis. Then announcing he had predicted the arthritis and confirming he is correct that she has arthritis.

We have brought her beyond his expectations yet I feel we can go further. Fighting the mycoplasma infection that Ted considers the cause of the cartilage breakdown in arthritis. I cannot think of anyway to afford a $9000 device, not saying it would be possibly worth it.

I am hoping you can provide some more information from your experience.

I honestly do not even know how to formulate the correct question. Thank you in advance for any thoughts you may have. Janet



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