Multiple Remedies for Perioral Dermatitis


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Grace (London) on 03/19/2015
5 out of 5 stars

Multiple Remedies:

Do not use tap water or soap to wash your face. Instead use Avene Micellar lotion followed by spring water mixed at a ratio of 3:1 with pure powdered vitamin C crystals (I used Now brand), then spritz face with avene spring water spray. Do not exfoliate or ever get face wet in shower or bath with tap water as this is full of chlorine and will unbalance ph of your skin.

Follow the Avene routine with Weleda Calendula Baby Face cream.

Do not use any products that contain SLS, whether it is in shampoo, hair dye, toothpaste. Avoid hair dyes that contain bleach, dye hair with natural methods like henna or herbal dyes.

If you must use make up use only organic brands that contain no oil, do not use any mineral make up that contains bismuth. I use primal life make up that is only pure powdered herbs and clays. Do not use commercial brands of make up or anything that contains coconut or other oils.

Reduce sugars and especially refined carbs in your diet. Stick to a paleo diet and you will clog up your skin far less. Avoid histamines in foods, like processed, smoked, fermented, pickled foods, like wine, cheese etc. Look up the low histamine diet. Avoid beans, pulses and minimize lentils which are hard to digest and cause bloating and blotchy skin for those with weak digestion.

This is a strict regime which basically involves living very clean inside and outside but it really works! If you follow these instructions you should have beautiful, clear skin.

REPLY   1      

Claire (Uk) on 02/24/2015
5 out of 5 stars

It's so good to find I'm not alone on this!! I have battled for 5 months to get rid of my ugly facial rash as for the first few months I thought it was candida... And have only just finally been properly diagnosed with perioral dermatitis. After just a couple of days have finally noticed a massive improvement after using raw organic honey on my face at night, then reapplying raw organic coconut oil throughout the day. I have stopped wearing makeup on my face as this made it much worse and I realised i'd been spreading it with my concealer (which I've now thrown away! ). I'm also taking grapeseed oil capsules 3x per day, liquid organic echinacea in my drinks several times per day and 3 drops of organic oregano and olive oil 3x per day.

I'm mainly eating organic salad and vegetables, organic eggs and organic chicken. Have just started having 2 pieces of organic fruit per day now too. Have given up my morning coffee as this seemed to aggravate and now only drinking organic herb teas. No soap on my face, only non flouride toothpaste (kingfisher or sarakan) and no other make up or products on my face. Finally after months of depression and frustration (as I've always had really clear skin)... My scabs are basically gone, no more leaking liquid from my bumps, my bright red rash has faded to a light pink and my skin is healing nicely. It's been a long journey but I am so happy now that my skin is finally starting to get back to normal! I really feel for all you who are going through what I did... And I pray you will be healed very soon. I hope this will help you xxx

REPLY   2      

Rodders505 (Sydney, Australia) on 08/16/2014
5 out of 5 stars

Thank you so much to earthclinic and everyone who has contributed to this website. You saved my sanity. This is long but like most people, it's been a journey of what's worked and it's never been quite straight forward!

Scenario: No prior history although I suspect it had been under the surface; for years, I would have 3 'little stress spots' around my eyes that would crop up but be gone in a day or two. Medication: 25mg prednisolone / prednisone orally a day to suppress an elevated level of natural killer cells in pregnancy. Unfortunately the wee bub didn't make it (unrelated chromosome issues) so half way through slowly reducing the steroids was the start. The pregnancy hormones wouldn't have helped but text book steroid withdrawal trigger. So quick - all round my nose, chin, perfect muzzle, spreading out to my cheeks and with increasing spots round the eyes. I said no to antibiotics. Thank you to the person who said you can't change it over night. Improvements occurred quickly once I got on track but it took about 9 weeks before I believed I could say 'YEA':

Week 1 & 2: Lightly diluted tea tree oil, and second week followed it with Lavender to sooth. Result: not good. Slowed the spread. Still very red, sore and cracked.

Week 3: Changed tooth paste to non fluoride and non SLS and stopped my face creams although all products did not contain SLS and were already natural and organic. Powdered sugar and oil - fantastic! Within 24 hours healed the cracks and skin felt so much better, although was redder and looked worse for 1-2 days. It was itchy after 3-4 hours, so was nigh on impossible to have a good nights sleep but wow, what an improvement. If I had been able to do this for the recommended 7-10 days and nights, I would have got to where I am now a lot quicker but I had challenges highlighted below. Result: Great, distinct improvement. Took away a large number of the deep red spots and left with lighter red patches and fewer red spots where it was most effected.

Challenges: I run my own business - client facing (white collar) and I entertain a lot! Very hard not to drink or wear makeup.

Week 3: In Hong Kong for work, limited time for the sugar pack (apart from flight and at night), so I used calendula cream and bought an organic tinted moisturiser with SPF 30 which was ok, very light coverage but didn't aggravate (I still use now). I don't work for them -Juice Beauty by the Organic Solution. Result: No real improvement as very difficult to do anything consistently. Still good but still very present.

Week 4: Thailand - hot and humid. No suncream on the face in fear of reacting badly and kept face out of the sun. After a few days in the sea, I changed my routine to washing /padding with salt water, moisturising with coconut oil and aloe vera (both from a local Thai organic shop). 1 day after very red then another improvement. At this point it had reduced to just six distinct points with accompanying redness around my mouth. Returning to Oz, realised I wouldn't be able to do much with the routine for 24 hours, had read about Shea Butter and used this for the flights. Result: Good, another positive change getting better! Perhaps 75% - 85% there.

Week 5: In Sydney - dry, winter conditions. Kept with the same Thai routine: washed with salt water (don't rub! ), moisturise with coconut and aloe vera. Slather with shea butter in the day whilst at work - great protector for under make up too, although I would wash the make up off straight after a meeting. Result: Still very good, slow improvements, reduced to four areas.....85 - 90%

Week 6 & 7: To the UK, change of air again!! Sounds very extravagant but it's not the norm and I didn't travel anywhere last year! By now, I had nearly absorbed all of the earth clinic reviews and tweaked to the following treating inside and out:

  • Drank Aloe Vera (without the potassium preservative) approx. third of a glass on an empty stomach every morning
  • Added approx. 2x table spoons of ACV to my norm morning drink of wheatgrass and apple juice
  • Cleanse face with Grapefruit seed extract 4-6 drops diluted in a quarter of a glass of water (lasts for approx. 3 days), let it dry followed with aloe vera and coconut oil
  • At night, same routine, also drinking ACV diluted with water, followed by more aloe vera juice
  • Also take: fish oil high grade, b vitamin and probiotic

Then my Mum (retired nurse) who had experienced a strange fungal rash on her leg, suggested this cream, which had worked for her - again I do not work for this company - Skinfix, organic herbal cream ironically made in Australia. I replaced the coconut oil with this only on the effected areas. I thought it was worse the next day, was frustrated but again, with the above routine it visibly improved. Result: 99.9% gone. This was the first time I would look in a mirror, leave the room and realise I hadn't immediately stared at 'the' area. All gone on both sides of the chin, left hand side of round my mouth up to my nose and right hand side. I'm aware of the 0.01% because as you all know, this type of reaction / condition makes you scrutinise your face - well with the routine, you get a good chance to see yourself first and last thing.

Week 8 & 9: Returned to Oz, back in the dry and in a few days, I could see a few red spots. I also went to the snowy mountains -very dry and minus 7. I slathered the areas with shea butter, which was a great thick protector. After a few days of climate adjustment, I believe, I had stuck with the routine and the red spots disappeared again.

Diet: I have an alkaline IC diet anyway but was definitely stricter while trying to treat this: no tomatoes, no citrus, sugar, nothing processed, no dairy. I did drink wine but not a lot!! And only either organic, biodynamic or European (French, Spanish or Italian as they contain, by law, very low levels of acid).

Hang in there! - sometimes it does get worse for 1-2 days before it gets better! That happened to me 3x and my mum gave me good advice- whatever you try - try for at least 1-2 weeks before changing.

I also took photos (wish I had taken them at the beginning or for the first 4 weeks) as I was finding it hard at times to see any improvement. I recommend this as it helped me stick with it when I felt like turning everything on its head and there actually had been an improvement when I compared the photos!! Don't do what I did though - be consistent I.e. always after you've cleansed or woken up.

Good Luck!! And Thank You again. This really got me incredibly down at one point and the journey would have been horrible without this amazing website and the people who have shared.

REPLY   2      



Lou (Barcelona, Spain) on 06/30/2013
5 out of 5 stars

Dear all suffering with PD,

My story regarding PD is quite lengthy (sorry I don't want to bore you, but I think the history of how it all began is important for all to understand the cause, the desperation and eventually miraculous treatment, )and after much confusion, upset, cost and frustration I want to share it with you, with the hope that any fellow sufferers will be alleviated from this painful and psychological debilitating affliction quickly.

My PD started roughly 5 years ago after shingles, so obviously my immunity system was already surpressed.

I live in Spain and for many years used expensive as natural as possible 25-50 sun creams on my face, in winter as well as summer as I enjoy many outdoor sports including sailing.

As typical with PD, I noticed a small patch of irrated skin appearing just below my left nostril. I have extremely sensitive skin with a history of allergic reactions to many lotions and potions... E45 was always my anchor, however it was not helping me here.

As I work in an alternative health clinic, I am surrounded by well informed collegeues on the alternative treatments for dermatological problems, however, after using homeopathy and accupuncture and the typical suggestions of natural topical treatments my problem, although controlled, was in no way cured, and some of the natural 'potions' irritated my sensitive skin even more. Also after calm periods the PD would suddenly flare up again, and it seemed each new episode brought a greater degree of intensity and growth of this affliction.

Eventually I visited my GP who in turn referred me to a dermatologist, who confirmed a PD diagnosis, and yes you have all guessed what was prescribed ...... Steroid cream!!!! SURPRISE!!!! I was told to use it for 10 days and to apply it with a cotton bud. I followed the instructions and was pleased with the outcome... PD vanished... Well for a short while...

Then it came back, so I would then dab on a little more steroid cream... and thus I entered the downward spiral of steroid cream 'quick fix' addiction. Obviously I used it sparingly, and I don't think that in the five years I have exceeded more than 50g of steroid cream, but I knew that the problem was getting worse.

However, it remained my crutch. One day whilst in the waiting room of a clinic waiting for an gynaecological ultrasound, I came across an article about the relationship between facial suncreams and PD... BINGO!!! All I needed to do was stop using suncreams on my face.

It seemed (at least for a while) that my miracle cure had arrived. I stopped the suncream and started using Aveeno (not advertising here it was recommended by my sister who's son suffers for eczema.) However, after about 18months my PD came back, stronger and more resistant than ever and once again the battle was on.

I must also add, that other than chocolate and coffee I eat a very healthy vegetarian and organic produce diet, with very little alcohol, I drink lots of mineral or filtered water don't smoke, exercise on a regular basis, cycle everywhere in the city and do not take any other medication. Also all my cleaning products are natural. My beauty products other than the E45 and Aveeno are completely paraben and fragrance free, and for the last year I use a flouride free toothpaste from the herbal shop.

Eventually I arrived to the point where I didn't want to have to rely upon my steroid cream 'crutch' and wanted a healthier natural remedy that was going to be effective, and rather than procrastinating any longer 'no time like the present' became my mantra.

11 days ago was the last time I applied the steroid cream, and 'oh my goodness, ' its been quite a journey. I went 'cold turkey' and in 5 days my face was literally on 'fire' it was extremely distressing and painful. My skin was red raw, raised, itchy, blistered and with an intense burning sensation around the nose mouth and left eye areas. But, this was it there was no going back and I was now focused on finding the healthy solution.

I trawled the internet forums and thank goodness I came across 'Earth Clinic'..... you have all been a huge help and after initial trial and errors here is what I used and when I got the mixture right I had a lightening time recovery.

I tried Aloe Vera cream and gel.. MADE IT WORSE

Rose Hip oil... MADE IT WORSE

Apple Cider Vinegar... MADE IT WORSE

Tap Water... Made IT WORSE

Aveeno cream... SLIGHT relief from itching (but contains chemicals )

###FOLLOW the below recipe for relief and 80% improvement in 2 days..... IT DID FOR ME

***ORGANIC OAT MILK milk stored in fridge (used for cleansing)..... TOTAL RELIEF from itching and stinging

***ORGANIC LIVE YOGHURT, 2tablespoons, with 2 capsules of 'natures plus' Ultra Probiotic emptied into the mixture(not advertising had the ultra probiotic already stored in the fridge to regenerate intestinal flora after taking antibiotics for tooth implant) any good acidophilus will work, I then added 1 teaspoon of organic honey to this mixture.... Popped the mixture in the freezer for 10 mins, then with a sterile makeup brush I painted it all over my face, around the eyes and double thickness in the areas that were mostly suffering... SUCCESS and HEAVENLY... The coolness of this mixture is soothing. Leave it on for between 20 to 30 mins then rinse off with an organic cotton pad and mineral water, the fine powder from the probiotic/acidophilus capsule will also serve as a delicate exfoliant to remove the gradual drying out of the PD..... Apply morning and evening

***COCONUT OIL (cheap and from any health food store) apply with organic cotton pad twice Daily after the yoghurt treatment. This takes down the swelling and starts to dry up the inflammation.

***ACUPUNCTURE to balance the meridians and remove the excess 'fire' energy from the body, and helps to stimulate the suprarenal glands to produce 'Cortisol' which is our very own organic form of steroid which has anti inflammatory properties on our organism... RELAXING and nice to have a therapist to talk to you about your symptoms

***HOMEOPATHY, Initially I took Rhus toxicodendron 30ch and felt a lot WORSE for it, so I changed to Histaminium 30ch 2 granules under my tongue 3 times a day.... RELIEF instantly my swelling started to subside

***AND LASTLY.... I wanted a 'pure as one can get' vitamin E cream to reduce the possibility of scarring, however after searching numerous pharmacies, health food and herbal stores here in Barcelona I couldn't find any, but my intuition told me to look at La ROCHE-POSAY products who have an amazing programme in their Spa's in France for treating scars and build up of scar tissue after mastectomies. I came across 'Cicablast Baume B5' 'CICA' is derived from the french word for scar... 'Cicatrice' and although, not totally free of chemicals it is fragrance and paraben free and contains shea butter and zinc gluconate. This was very soothing and the difference the next morning was ASTOUNDING!!!!! I would only recommend this at the end of the treatment list and for a few days only.

I am now sitting writing this with my face nearly looking normal and reflecting on it all it has been a HUGE learning curve, and I know this will be of use to others that is why I decided to share it with you all. I realise that PD is not 100% curable, however I think with the above tools it will now be 100% treatable.

Cost wise, most of these products are not at all expensive.... in fact other than the Acupuncture most are well under 10euros, or are products that we already have in the house.

I think it also important to point out that its necessary to allow your PD to 'Come Out' after stopping the steroid cream. Its a distressing time but then you will no to some extent what you are 'really' treating

I am now just going to put on the cooling yoghurt face pack... BLISS

Good luck and thank you for your help and support, I will keep you updated as it is still early days for me as yet.

Lou xxx

REPLY         

Lizzy (British Columbia, Canada) on 04/29/2013
5 out of 5 stars

I had my first attack of PD about 10 years ago and treated it with a 2 month course of anti-biotics. It came back about 9 months ago and was using a hydro cortizone cream. This worked okay for a while but then became ineffective. I researched and found out the cream was not a good option. I stopped using it and Oh MY goodness, my skin went crazy. Then I found this site. I did afew things to help. I applied Teatree oil during the day and then a 40% zinc oxide cream (diper rash cream) at night. With in about three days I saw a bit of a difference. I also decided to treat my toe fungas by swallowing 1tbs 2x/day of ACV (with mother). Then my skin really improved. Oh one more thing, I started taking a good quality mulitiple vitamin. I was thinking that if the zinc cream was helping externally, than maybe internally would help too.
REPLY   1      

Found Cause Of Pd (Los Angeles, California) on 02/21/2013
5 out of 5 stars

I have been doing TONS of research. While Perioral Dermatitus might be caused by Steroids, chemicals, etc. a good portion why it comes is Parasites inside the small intestine. We all carry, 99.9% of people (according to research) at least 1 parasite. Well guess what, some of them are in our bodies for the rest of lives, or until we get rid of them. Why women are more likely to get Perioral Dermatitus. Well first Pregnant women might get PD because of their estregen level is much higher when pregnant, I think it might cause to produce a lot more stomach acid, that in turn causes PD. So for pregnant women the best control for it is ALOE VERA JUICE, A LOT OF IT. Do you own research, but it has some amazing benefits. For the rest of women, PD is an Yeast Overgrowth, but guess what causes the east to go crazy in the intestine, its acid level, and guess what causes more acid production: Parasites. Parasites also deplete the body of B Vitamins, thats why some mention that they have Vitamin Deficiencies.

Before spending tons of money, this is what you need to do. First RESEARCH. Then you need to kill the parasite in the stomach: Black Walnut Hull, Woodworm, and Clove (all three combined will do anti-ceptic/anti-fungul/kill the bad bacteria, kill parasites and anything that is very bad in your stomach. Research before you use Black Walnut for longer than 1. 5 months, since it might overload the liver, so you have to be careful, but this remedy has been used since the ancient times. Then you NEED STRONG PRE-BIOTICS, while people mention Yogurt is good, its not enough, you might get about 1 million good bacteria in a big yogurt jug, but you really need more like 50-100 billion good bacteria, usually those PRE-BIOTIC pills run at a healthfood store $20-$40 for like a 30 day supply, but you this. Then as dealing with the face, while your body is being healed and cured of this crap. You need APPLE CIDER VINEGAR, you can also take it internally, make sure its an hour apart from other things you are ingesting to kill parasites. Dont mix them, and put them in your stomach at the same time, each needs space to work. Apple Cider Vinegar, while deluted in water and taken orally, helps control yeast (which is given free reign because of the parasite that is causing the whole entire thing). Apple Cider Vinegar should also be deluted and applied to the dermatitus. It will help a lot After about 1-2 hours after applying Apple Cider Vinegar, you need to apply a yogurt mast to your face, to introduce good bacteria, since Apple Cider Vinegar just killed the bad fungus bacteria, you need to introduce good bacteria. A lot of things on this forum are right on track. But none of them mentioned that ITS A PARASITE IN THE STOMACH THAT IS CAUSING THE YEAST TO GO CRAZY (NOT IN ALL CASES, BUT FROM A GUESS, IN ABOUT 50% OR MORE). So if you tried remedies and you think that something is not right, please do a parasite cleanse, it might do the trick. A person should be able to eat varieties, and not eating fructose such as fruit is rediculous, at least after you killed the parasites. I surely hope this info is usefull. I think dermatologists are useless in this. People do your research, much love!.

REPLY   2      

Firecrack (Denver, Co) on 01/28/2013
5 out of 5 stars

I didn't have a bad case of Perioral Dermitis--just a minor breakout around my nose. Went to the derm to get the diagnosis and was prescibed Oracea and Clindamycin (topical). I didn't want to take the oral antibiotics for 6 weeks, so I just started with the Clindamycin 2x a day. After one week it just seemed to be more irritated, so after reading several posts on this site, I added ACV with mother. This is the routine that's working for me after one week:

Wash face with Dr. Bonners mild baby soap.

50/50 ACV applied with a cotton swab-- let dry for 10 min. or so.

Apply the topical Clindamycin.

Do this every morning and evening.

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Lucy (Perth, Australia) on 10/23/2012
5 out of 5 stars

I have had PD for almost 1 month brought on I am guessing by stress from changes at work. At first concerned about what I thought was a cluster of pimples above my mouth (and my skin is usually always clear). I soon realized it was not normal "spots" and grew very worried as this bumpy red rash began to spread to the other side of my mouth, down to my chin and then the side of my nose! Ahhh! I researched alot and decided that antibiotics would be my absolute last resort. I began my "treatment" about 6days ago and now the rash and bumps are virtually gone! So happy. I can go out without any makeup and all that is left now is a very slight pink tone as it fades.

The treatment I chose was to take multi vitamins, fish oil, zinc tablets, and probiotic tablets every day. I also continued to use my normal cleanser (neutrogena deep clean) morning and night. After cleansing I applied Tea Tree Oil to the rash with a damp cotton tip. I let it sit for a few minutes (tingled slightly but didn't burn)and then splashed my face with water and applied Organic Argan Oil (my normal moisturizer) as my face is super dry without it and I also read that Argan Oil has benefits for dermatitis etc. The first day of treatment the rash looked redder and angrier than ever but I preserved and am so glad I did! As after that the bumps just disappeared and the red faded and now the skin is healing. I am going to continue with this for some time to hopefully stop a repeat. I really hope this can help someone else!

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April (Thomasville, Nc) on 09/04/2012
5 out of 5 stars

I have never left any comments on a site before, but I felt like I should share my experience it may help someone else. I was diagnosed in may with PD, I got it from using steriod cream on my forehead. I went to my medical doctor in feburary for a rash between my eyebrows and he put me on a strong steriod cream for the rash. My rash was gone in a week, WOW I was happy, so I stopped using the cream the next week it was back. So I started it again this went on for a month off using the cream then stopping. Well I noticed a spot on my chin so I used the cream needless to say I broke out with a severe rash all around my mouth and nose.

Went to a dermatologist and was told I had a severe case of PD. Derma told me to quit using the steriods and that my face would get worse before it got better. Was put on minocycline 100 mg daily. I do not like taking meds but was desperate so I took them. Ithe next day I was so dizzy and shot of breath I could not get out of bed. Called the derma and she put me on metro cream. This helped some but burn like fire every time I used it.

That's when I started researching it and found this amazing site. So this is what I do, I take acidophilus daily, also eat at least one yogurt daily, I drink 1/4 cup of ACV daily. At night I apply organic yogurt all over my face and let it stay on for 20 to 30 min then wash it off. I then apply diluted ACV to my whole face let it dry and then smother my face in calendula cream and go to bed. The next morning I wash my face with water only and apply a small amount of calendula cream. I am so pleased with the results I still have slight redness but makeup covers it up. I hope this helps someone else because, I am very happy with the results. I am so happy I found this site.

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Sv (New York City) on 08/28/2012
5 out of 5 stars

Hi there... It's my first time posting on a forum like this but I wanted to share my experience so far. I've had Rosacea my entire life, so skin "stuff" has been on the back of my mind pretty much every waking moment of every day of my teen and adult life. About four weeks ago I started getting the mild symptoms of Perioral Dermatitis (PD): the severe burning, itching, sensitivity, and the redness around the lips and chin. I attribute it to sports-related activity as I wear a helmet with a chin-strap and a mouth-guard with my uniform a few times per week. Nothing over the counter helped, and actually it made it worse. It got so bad last week that scheduled a visit with the Dermatologist last Tuesday and she confirmed that PD is indeed what I had. After reading up on PD incessantly, I made a personal decision NOT to take the Cortizone topical cream and the harsh oral antibiotics she prescribed. Instead I decided to take the all-natural way first before diving into the scary world of harsh pharmaceuticals prescribed to me, since my body and skin are both very sensitive to medicine and antibiotics.

Well, it's been ONE week and I can assure you that the following combination so far is helping me A TON:

-- Do NOT use any make-up, moisturizers, face creams, ANYTHING that is synthetic. Leave your skin free of any soaps, washes, solutions, topical creams, etc. Trust me!!!

-- Start out by gently cleaning your face with ORGANIC honey... I know, it sounds weird, but just start by washing it with warm water and the honey (trust me, it cleans your makeup off too! )... it leaves your skin super-soft and moisturized.

-- When you are ready, start adding a plain yogurt mask to your cleaning regimen, preferably after gently washing your face with the honey. Try mixing the yogurt with the honey--it makes for a great, soothing, deliciously-smelling mask. Do that once in the morning and once at night.

-- After a day or so of the honey and yogurt, add some ACV (Apple Cider Vinegar) to your regimen. For the last 4 days, I have used it as a toner, as well as taking it internally. As a toner, use a dab of it on cotton or soft tissue over the affected area for about a minute, and let it dry, It WILL burn as all hell, but just let it be. The burning wears off as the effect of the naturally-acidic properties dry off. Then...

-- Take a swig!!! The properties in the ACV are VERY helpful with balancing the properties of your skin. I don't claim to know much about that part or the ACV regimen, but I can tell you, my skin has NEVER felt this happy. Nor my tummy's digestion. It's done something to my body that I can't explain... just read up on it.

-- Finally, I have been taking vitamin E and calcium supplements since last week. I have also been using the oil of the vitamin E to dab upon the affected area overnight. It feels funny because it's an oil, but eventually it dissolves into the skin and it makes it feel supple and happy :)

Don't forget to drink tons of water and to also stay away from spicy foods and sulfites... these are killer for PD.

So far like I said it's been 6.5 days since the worst of my symptoms and I feel 95% back to the normal way I felt before. I will stress to try the natural way before you try the prescription creams/medicine. Best of luck :) I know it's frustrating as hell.

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