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Janis (Renton, US.) on 11/11/2008

For all that are suffering from vaginal atrophy. Keep in mind that there is a drug in clinical trials right now called Ospemifene. Ospemifene is one of a class of drugs called selective estrogen receptor modulators. In tests ospemifene appears to have an estrogen like effect on the vagina and it is supposed to be absolutely safe to be used for vaginal atrophy. I am just wondering if anyone else has heard of this. I am waiting for this to become available to try. Also wondering if anyone has figured out what can be used in the meantime until I will be able to try the ospemifene.

Replied By Patrice (Dublin, Ireland) on 01/06/2011

hi, patrice here , I too suffer with athropy and I have just been reading about Ophena, it sounds like the answer to my problem, can anyone say where I can buy it as it might take ages to be on the shelf in ireland..patrice

Replied By Elfgoo (Buffalo, NY) on 11/18/2012

Check out Dr Greenbean website which explains reason you can't find E3. http://www.drgreenbean.com/topics/hormone-balance/ look under heading New Evidence Supporting Safety of Bioidentical hormones. It's FDA that pulled the plug because they're more interested in giving Big Pharms more money than helping people.

Replied By Downs (Oklahoma, Oklahoma City) on 12/02/2012

Anyone like to give a update on E3 and the DHEA for atrophy?

Replied By Babs (Palmyra, Va) on 01/16/2013

I am 47 and had am postmenopausal. I suffer from severe vaginal atrophy and pain with intercouse. I have been to the doctor and prescribed estrace... Did not help. I have also dried Emerita Progesterone cream helped for a while, but then subsided and I noticed fast weight gain. I have been reading all the studies on intravaginal dhea. Many reputable sites are saying this is safe. Has anyone tried using dhea tablets intravaginally?

Replied By Hashiaussie (Melbourne, Australia) on 01/17/2013

Hi Babs, After reading about DHEA on this site last year (https://www.earthclinic.com/cures/vaginal-atrophy.html#DHEA) I researched and took the pub med link below to my Dr. This is my second remedy, the first being estrogen cream. I had previously suffered months of atrophy (and unbeknownst developed a cystocele). I am now on pessaries into about month 2 and I can say they are definitely working to get everything in working order. I have more to do on the cystocele (weight, special exercises) but getting there I hope. No increase in libido from the DHEA though. Also on thyroid medicines.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20459349

I also read Dr Mercola's recommendation of pessaries against oral doses of hormone. Pessaries, however, are expensive, (about 1 dollar each here)and 1 is used every night. They each contain 5mg of Dhea and were made for me by a compounding chemist. The dose may need adjusting and back to Dr for further review in a month or so. I am 54 with hashimotos disease and my abtibodies are a bit high and T3 is low at the moment so not a perfect scenario for libido. (See Dr Sandra Cabot's advice as well on libido). I had been on the typically prescibed internal estrogen cream before this and it was also working (plus a libido) but like you, and with a background in estrogen dominance and a bit of left breast pain reappearing, the risks looked too high to me. I have a great Dr and she is doing some more research on this to see if she can help her other patients. Hope this helps. Thanks to EC for this site.

Replied By Babs (Palmyra, Va) on 01/20/2013

Thank you so much for your reply. I read the links and I am going to try breaking a sub lingual 5mg tablet of DHEA in half and insert it vaginally. From the research I read, this mode of delivery (vaginal) will not increase the blood serum levels of hormones systemically. I hope it works and I hope things improve for you as well.

Replied By Babs (Palmyra, Va) on 02/15/2013

I wanted to update my earlier post about using dhea vaginally. I have been inserting 1/4 of a 5mg dhea tablet (sublingual and purchased off of Amazon) vaginally for 4 weeks now. The results are fairly dramatic. The dryness and pain with intercourse is GONE!! I have also notice an increase in my libido. I have had no other side effects and would recommend this to anyone who is suffering with vaginal atrophy and dryness

Replied By Downs (Oklahoma City, Oklahoma) on 02/24/2013

How often do you use this? I am having a little anxiety from it if I use it everyday. And a little meanness. I think I will try every other day and suggestions

Replied By Joy (Battleground, Wash) on 02/28/2013

I have been reading a lot of hormone books the past two years and my bladder is fallen, pressing on my nerves. I applied E...... brand progesterone cream for 6 months and slowly increased the dose, then added vit D , when my blood test revealed it was VERY LOW, (D is a hormone ), then added magnesium citrate and that helped the muscle tone as well.

Then added the same brand of phytoestrogen and later added estradiol to the mix, since the body has three estrogens in it.

Now as far as you feeling aggressive or mean, the body will produce hormones if given the right environment/products to produce them in/with,

BUT NOT PROGESTERONE and that is the hormone that is calming. Maybe you could add it and find the right balance.

I am hoping to try adding DHEA next , thanks for your inputs... hope this helps you ....

Replied By Carol (San Mateo, Ca) on 03/04/2013

Joy, are you saying you use vitamin d, magnesium, progesterone, etc. on your vagina?

Replied By Joy (Battleground, Wash) on 03/06/2013

NO, I use the vitamin D , magnesium citrate , and other vitamins and lots of coconut oil orally. I used progesterone for 6mo with no other vits or mins or creams and got new p - hair that was not grey, then added some phytoestrogen , a little dab on the outer vagina and then recently added a small dab estradiol right above the hairline to pull up the bladder.

I am prone to yeast infections , so no creams work inside with hormones on them. I have added products--- one a month, after 6 months of progesterone alone, and each has improved my muscle tone over my whole body. I wouldn't stop using any of them unless the problem was completely resolved.

Magnesium citrate from S..... Giving me dramatic changes toward youthfullness and intestinal health. Constipation wreaks havok on pelvic floor muscles.

I am still reading up and adding some new things. There is a pessary that inflates to fill the cavity to help a person get some exercise called INFLATOBALL.... ANYONE KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT IT ? Also has anyone done the allum soaking with good results?

Replied By Gavin (Manganui, Northland, New Zealand) on 03/06/2013

If you google "alum and vagina", there is a utube video that gives all the details. I bet the alum would give a nice cheap face lift as well.

Replied By Joy (Battleground, Wash) on 03/06/2013

I went to the utube site, it answered some questions. thanks for the input......

Replied By Carol (San Mateo, Ca) on 03/07/2013

Joy, where do you apply the progesterone? I rubbed it on my wrists for 8 months but got spooked with a saliva test showed me way too full of progesterone. I wondered if it softened my ligaments, resulting in a tiny sinking of the organs.

Replied By Joy (Battleground , Washington) on 03/07/2013

Hi, I have found that the progesterone creams are all different, I use the one made by E...... on my fat. Other brands made me moody.

I use 1 tsp. 3wks. a month - Plus 1/8 tsp. of the phytoestrogen .... (plus a small dab of the estradiol> I get a stiff neck with a bad headache if I use too much ).

At first everything on me tightened up and then it seemed less effective, but still an improvement. Then I started adding more things. I am cautious and add stuff slowly and journal results. Half the books at the library seem to recommend natural hormones and the other half are the advice you get from the ob/gyn.

I read the book by John Lee, he was an ob/gyn whos patients were symptomatic and he looked for answers. My hormones tested normal for a menopausal woman. I add the hormones based on the symptoms listed in the books I read. There are a lot of good books at the library about hormone imbalances with LISTS of symptoms based on each hormone deficiency or excess.

I like it when two books can agree on stuff. I go read book reviews on it... get other peoples opinions. I read reviews on the hormone creams and other products before I try them.

The magnesium citrate by S..... , is amazing for muscle and tone. I use a multi enzyme, all the B's. folic acid, selenium, mulit mineral, D-3, C, Betafood, Lecithin, coconut oil, yogurt, iodized sea salt, and I just learned today that I need to take amino acids in the form of protein powders (from rice, peas and soy) so my body can make collagen, so my skin can flex.

The alum is from aluminum and that would not be good for me.

I got a core ball a couple months ago . I get a good range of motion without hurting myself by overextending. I do motions like hoola hoop, sitting down and bounce and roll back and forth stretching muscles, firming up my core. I also walk an hour a day.

I can only say ..... read, read, read, and then try stuff.... like....measure twice before you cut.

Replied By Joy (Battleground, Wash) on 03/10/2013

If it is causing discomfort it is probably doing more harm than good. I had to treat yeast overgrowth everytime I tried a dab of prem.... Two days in a row, and finally gave up. Used three prescriptions for yeast treatment in 6 months.

I felt so frustrated I didn't try hormones again for a year, when I tried something else.

Does using an oral dose of dhea help tighten your muscles. My sister uses it and says it helps her a lot. I haven't gotten up enough courage to try it yet. I add new products SLOWLY in low doses... And try one day, skip the next, then try again, skip the next. Some things work best one day a week.

Replied By Voyager6331 (Dunedin, Fl) on 03/11/2013

I emailed Bezwecken... They discontinued the estriol suppositories for "business reasons".... Not happy!

Replied By Kim (Toronto, Ontario) on 05/01/2013

Thanks to all for sharing what you have discovered about vaginal atrophy etc. I work in the area of women's health and also have a great female ob/gyne. Someone asked about dilators - from all I have discovered, and from my doc's advice, "if you don't us it you lose it". When sex hurts us of course we avoid it, including self-pleasuring. And the lack of blood flow and tissue stimulation only makes everything worse. My friends and I have discovered that a whole range of things need to be used to help. We are usually low on Vit D, and as mentioned magnesium (oral)is very helpful to many (500mg). Using an oil vaginally (E, Jojoba... ) helps, and I need vagifem (only the 10mg) at times as well. And then to avoid or to fix labia fusion (where tissues fuse together) vaginal sex, on your own or with a partner, is critical. Use of a vibrator/dildo is good because it can stretch things open again. Can hurt so do it on your own, have a glass of wine first and a salts bath after! Then I have to get myself to keep up my routine... Just like flossing!

Replied By James (CO) on 01/31/2015

Bezwecken did discontinue their E3 suppositories, but they replaced them eventually with their "Hydration Cubes." They're made to be applied topically, however, my wife has been using them just like suppositories, and they work great.

Replied By Linda (Bainbridge Island, Wa) on 02/23/2015

I've been using the Hydration Cubes for vaginal atrophy. I was inserting them twice a week. I had been having pain and stinging with intercourse and for quite some time had stopped wanting sex at all due to fear of pain. The stinging came when I urinated after intercourse. So, I was turned on to the Cubes. Since taking them, sexual intercourse has been painless, my pubic hair seems to be thicker and I feel younger in general, but the side effect I am suspicious of being caused by the Cubes is that I have been emotional like I was when I was menstruating. I haven't had my period in 8 years, and have only started using the Cubes for the past 6 months.

I've noticed a huge shift in my nervous energy, racing heart, and emotions. I cry more easily, get frustrated and angry more easily, over nothing! I wonder if it is the hormones. And if so, I'm now doing an experiment and cutting the Cubes in 1/2 , which is difficult as they crumble - not a big problem, I can mold the crumbs together and still insert them...I'll see if I have the same reaction or if I feel more balanced. I'm interested in trying the jojoba oil though. I'm sure we women don't talk enough about this reality of our bodies... and I have to wonder if like letting my hair go grey, it is not just another important aspect of aging to allow the body to simply age and not feel I have to be sexually active as I was when I was young. I've had great sex and connection with my lovers and husband in my life - maybe I don't need to push this and should just let my body be what it is. Older! 65. I'm still quite youthful, healthy and vital and I have a younger husband -- which is one reason I want to continue to have intercourse, both thinking it's good for me and good for him. He's completely loving and wouldn't want me to do anything I don't want to do. Still, I do feel a little confused about my choice. Anyway, that's my story!

Replied By James (CO) on 03/02/2015

Linda, I'm not a doctor or anything, but from the reading I've done, it sounds like you're on the right track by interpreting your body's reaction as saying the dose is too high. The symptoms you mention all sound like what happens when one is getting more estrogen than needed.

When my wife first started using these, her Naturopath recommended she use one a night for 2 weeks, then slowly taper off until she was using only 1 a week. The reason, she said, was to get the tissues plumped up...requires a heavy dose, or a high concentration initially. Then, once the tissues are soft and supple, she said my wife could taper off to 1 a week.

Just before we learned of the Hydration Cubes, however, we stocked up on some "natural vitamin E suppositories." We got them on the web, no prescription required.

So once we met with the Naturopath, and she prescribed the Hydration Cubes, I was feel like, "wow, now what do we do with all these natural vitamin E suppositories?"

And she said it was just fine for my wife to continue to use 1 or so a week of the natural vitamin E suppositories. So that's what she's done. It's almost like there's 2 issues at hand. One is the state of the tissue (i.e., originally it had kind of shriveled up like a prune, and was dry and the opposite of soft and supple.) But also, there was the issue of lack of arousal lubrication.

Well, once those tissues came alive again, so to speak, and became soft and supple, she continued to use 1 vitamin E suppository a week as well as 1 hydration cube a week. Also, she would use one vitamin E suppository just before we had sex. It helped ensure proper lubrication.

Just thought I'd mention the concept of using them in conjunction with each other - the hydration cubes to get the tissues in the desired state (of being soft and pliable and supple) - and the Vitamin E suppositories to help ensure proper lubrication.

Not sure if this helps or not, but maybe that can help allow you to reduce the frequency that you use the hydration cubes, and thus lessen your body's reaction. Just an idea. It might be a good idea, if it's possible, to try and see a Naturopath.

Lastly, I noticed from doing searches, that there seems to be 2 different hydration cubes. One says it's 1 x 12, and the other says it's 2 x 12. May I ask, which one are you using? My wife is using the 1 x 12. (In case the 2 refers to the strength, thought I'd mention it.) To be super clear, when I search for hydration cubes, I see "Bezwecken, Hydration Cubes 1 x 12 Cubes, " and I also see "Hydration Cubes 2X 12 Cubes"

Wishing you all the best.

Replied By Lee (Toronto) on 07/16/2015

Has anyone tried using the Bezwecken Hydration 1x estriol cubes in conjunction with vaginal insertion of their DHEA cubes?

I'm thinking of trying this as my vaginal atrophy is severe.....unable to have sex at all due to excruciating pain.

I had a major stroke at age 23 (cause undiagnosed but I was on birth control pills at the time) so I can't risk using a prescription estrogen based product. I'm just not sure if it's safe to take the estriol cubes as well as a quarter or half of a DHEA cube in tandem.

I'm deperate...any thoughts?

Replied By James (Colorado) on 07/16/2015

My wife uses the Bezwecken Hydration 1x estriol cubes as if they're suppositories. Have you tried that? You probably know this, but DHEA is a precursor to estriol, and progesterone, etc. So, you give your body DHEA and it converts it into whatever it thinks it needs. Not sure why you feel you need both. It may be too much. (I'm no doctor, but from my reading, just my 2 cents.)

Replied By Lee (Toronto) on 07/16/2015

Thanks James...I can tell you've done a lot of research in this area so your "two cents worth" is valuable. If DHEA converts into what your body needs (and I don't know exactly what that is) then I guess it makes sense for me to start with the DHEA cubes. I'm wondering how you determined that the estiole 1x cubes were right for your wife as opposed to the estriole 2x or DHEA cubes. Did she have tests done or has it just been trial and error?

Replied By James (Co) on 07/17/2015

You're welcome, Lee. Yeah, I certainly invested a lot of time into this.

You know, we just happened to come across the 1x cubes first. In fact, I didn't even realize there was a 2x version until much later...and the 1x cubes worked by then, so she never even tried them.

Before my wife's Naturopath notified her of the hydration cubes being released, I was searching frantically for a replacement for the old E3 suppositories. And I found some very interesting clinical studies which had been done with DHEA suppositories. I was very excited for her to try them. Unfortunately, the on-line pharmacy from whom I bought them, was either lazy, or cheap, or dumb...and they used glycol as the base or delivery method for the DHEA vaginal suppositories. Well, that's what they put into antifreeze! Needless to say, my wife's body had a reaction. She developed a mild irritation - lots of itching. So I was disappointed, and we had to throw them away. (We even tried it twice! The second time, after she had taken a break for a while. But the same results - lots of itching.)

Before I could find a version of DHEA suppositories that used a more gentle base or delivery method, she got the email from her Naturopath, saying that Bezwecken had just released the hydration cubes.

I'm no doctor...but if you go the DHEA route, please listen to your body carefully, because you won't know for sure what it converts the DHEA into...be it Estrogen, Progesterone, etc. I mean, if like in the clinical trials, it works...then awesome! If it works, it works! (I still remember Dr. Christine Northrup saying that, "listen to your body.")

It would be wonderful for other women reading this, Lee, if you could report back here with your results.

All the best!

James

Replied By Lee (Toronto) on 07/18/2015

So I tried ordering the DHEA cubes but they're not available so I ordered the estriole 1x hydration cubes instead.

Now, after doing more research, I feel somewhat hesitant, if not terrified, to take estriol given my history of stroke which was caused by a blood clot not a hemorrhage.

All estrogens, no matter how weak, seem to come with an increased risk of clotting in some individuals so I'm thinking it might be risky or just plain stupid to take estriol even if it is only vaginally.

I'm now desperate for a non-hormonal solution given my medical history. I've tried vaginal mosturizers like Replens and lubricants like Astroglide but they do not help at all! I know several people have mentioned using vitamin E suppositories...how helpful have these been in terms of improving or alleviating painful/impossible intercourse?

Any other suggestions? I've spent so many hours researching/worrying about this...any ideas would be appreciated. Thank you.

Replied By Mama To Many (Tennessee) on 07/18/2015

Dear Lee,

There is a Dr. Shultze product called "Ladies Formula" that is an herbal combination to help balance hormones for ladies of all ages. At 48, I find it very helpful. I make my own as it is much less expensive that way.

One of the herbs in it is Damiana. This herb is helpful for increasing circulation to the pelvic area. Taking one or two capsules of this once or twice a day might do the trick for you.

~Mama to Many~

Replied By James (Co) on 07/18/2015

When you say you tried ordering the cubes but they're not available...can you expound on that? Because I just googled Bezwecken DHEA cubes and one of the sites that came up was thenatural.com and that's where I've been getting the hydration cubes from. It would have let me add to cart. Maybe you mean you're unable to buy them in Canada.

By the way, it would probably help if you could find a Naturopath. I started to try and detail the education level of a Naturopath, but was at a loss...so I googled it, and this is from naturopathic.org:

A licensed naturopathic physician (ND) attends a four-year, graduate-level naturopathic medical school and is educated in all of the same basic sciences as an MD, but also studies holistic and nontoxic approaches to therapy with a strong emphasis on disease prevention and optimizing wellness. In addition to a standard medical curriculum, the naturopathic physician also studies clinical nutrition, homeopathic medicine, botanical medicine, psychology, and counseling. A naturopathic physician takes rigorous professional board exams so that he or she may be licensed by a state or jurisdiction as a primary care general practice physician.

I'm no doctor...but here's what I think - I think that warning about blood clotting is unique to, or originates from, the fact that all estrogens that an MD prescribes are actually not bio-identical to a human. For example, Premarin comes from pregnant mares urine. Well, I'm sorry...Medical profession...but a woman's body isn't fully receptive to the hormones that are in a horse. Examined under a microscope, Premarin contains things not found normally in a woman's body. So of course some women are going to have a reaction to it.

But don't take my word for it. If you haven't already, it sounds like it would really help you to reference some of the Dr. John Lee resources. For example, back when I was researching Natural Progesterone, I bought every recording and video that's on his site, as well as several books. I listened to his recordings over and over and over, and it really helped give me an intro into a woman's hormones, and reproductive system. True, they were made a while back, but it would still help you immensely, imho.

Don't give up! Hang in there!

I understand that you're frustrated. I've been there. Well, in case you're open to finding a Naturopathic Physician, I did some googling, and found this:

http://www.cand.ca/Find_an_ND.findnd.0.html

It's the Canadian organization of Naturopathic Doctors. They have a search engine to look for an ND.

Good luck.

Replied By Lynne (Ga) on 07/19/2015

I just ordered a 12-cube pack of Bezwecken DHEA Cubes from NaturalNutritionals.com. I am confused as some here have mentioned types of dhea being used as suppositories in a range of dosages from 3.5mg to 13 mg if I remember correctly. that is quite a difference. there are also several names being tossed about for seemingly the same thing? I received my order, but they don't have the amount of dhea in each cube listed, which I think is strange, but it's not like it is some off-brand. Consequently I will be calling the seller tomorrow to ask some questions. My question here is, it seems some are using a 3.5 mg sublingual tablet normally taken by mouth as a suppository and halving or quartering it which seems like a very tiny amount. I have severe dryness and no libido, but my hormones are not too far off. I'm 67 and been menopausal since 1996. And have not had sex in about 15 years. I know. I know. Gotta use it. Anyway, I am extremely careful about what I put in and on my body and don't have any faith whatsover in doctors. I pretty much go by how I feel and other than a constant annoying post nasal drip am very healthy.

Replied By Lee (Toronto) on 07/19/2015

"Mama to Many"

and James,

Thank you for your suggestions...the "Female Formula" sounds promising and it sent me off into many more hours of research!

There are several natural remedies to explore although it's hard to not just want a "quick fix" ( well relatively quick, anyway) by taking the DHEA cubes or estriol cubes that seem to have such a high success rate. I wouldn't do that without seeking medical advice, however,

James, I actually was googling naturopaths today so your link comes at a good time. The last naturopathic experience I had wasn't great so here's hoping the website you shared steers me in the right direction.

And, yes, I see that The Natural now has the DHEA cubes back in stock. They were out of stock for the last few days so I gave up. I know...patience is required but I've always been one to want to wrap up a problem quickly. I can see now, though, that this won't be the case.

The problem is that the more you research, the more confusing it becomes. For example, I've read all kinds of conflicting ideas about bio-identical hormones, etc. and it becomes a matter of who or what to believe. I have listened to a little of what Dr. John Lee has to say but should probably investigate him more.

Anyway, I'll report back later when I'm farther down the road with this.

Thank you so much for your help!

Replied By Jennysmom2 (Idaho) on 07/22/2015

I have found that the women's formula is very helpful, but expensive. Mama to Many, do you have a recipe for yours? I would appreciate it....

Replied By Mama To Many (Tennessee) on 07/23/2015

Dear Jennysmom2,

Yes, here is my recipe for something like Dr. Shultze's Ladies Formula:

Mix together the following herbs in the amounts explained.

1 part Dong Quai Root (Angelica)
1 part Chaste Tree Berries (Vitex)
1 part Wild Yam Root
1 part of the following mix - (3 parts Damiana leaf, 1 part Hops Flowers, 1 part Licorice root)

Take 2 ounces of the dried herb and put into a mason jar. Pour 16 ounces (2 cups) 100 Proof Vodka (50% aqueous-alcohol solution) over the herbs. Put the lid on the jar. Shake twice a day. After two weeks (up to six weeks), strain through a clean piece of muslin or t-shirt fabric or coffee filter. Store in a cool dark place.

When I made this tincture, I skipped the Hops Flowers and Licorice root because I didn't have them on hand and there was not a lot in the mixture. So I just used equal parts of Dong Quai Root, Chaste Tree Berries, Wild Yam Root and Damiana Leaf.

I usually get my herbs from Mountain Rose Herbs. You can just get 1/4 pound of each. Between that and the vodka, the up front cost seems like a lot. But you will be able to make oodles of this tincture. The tincture will last a couple of years. So you could make a lot of this stuff up at once and not worry about it for a while.

A general way to dose this is 1-2 droppersfull (35-70 drops) 3 times a day. This should not be taken in pregnancy.

The website where I got this information is: How to Make Female Formula

There is more specific dosing information there.

I am glad it helps you. I think it is helpful, too!

~Mama to Many~

Replied By James (Co) on 07/23/2015

Lee, you're welcome. Good luck. And I know what you mean about things being confusing. Personally, what I found after doing lots of reading, is that it's like there's two voices out there. One is the voice of the typical, Western medicine approach, where pharmaceutical companies develop drugs and then submit it to the FDA for approval, and then when/if that drug is approved, then the pharmaceutical companies go to work to educate the doctors and try and get them to prescribe it. (Do a search for "do doctors receive kickbacks from pharmaceutical companies" on Google, and you'll see there's plenty of info on that.) But these drugs aren't natural. They're not totally bio-identical. If they were, the pharmaceutical companies could not patent them. Instead, they've had to tweak something about the molecular structure to make it unique where they could patent it. And all one has to do, is look at how many women got breast cancer from taking HRT to know how the bodies of some women reacted to these synthetic substances whose molecular structure is foreign to their bodies.

And then the other voice, is the totally bio-identical one - that says to women, don't put something in your body unless the molecular structure of that substance is naturally occurring in your body. And that's how my wife and I discovered natural progesterone, and years later, E3 vaginal suppositories, and then later, the hydration cubes.

When the first voice says estrogen, and progesterone, they don't mean the same thing as when the second voice says those terms. So, it can be confusing. They're not the same thing. And therein lies the challenge, I think, to the lay person.

Replied By Gayle (Ga) on 11/28/2015

Used Biodentical Hormones 3 yrs ago, age 56, for about 18 months, rubbed the compound as prescribed under my arms between the elbow and armpit for approx. 12-18 months, developed Melanoma spot at the exact area compound was placed! Be careful and observe your bodies when using these chemicals. I threw the stuff in the trash!

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