Deb (Greenville, Sc) on 11/30/2009
Replied By Alain (Ottawa, Ontario, Canada) on 11/30/2009
Alain
Replied By Dan (Whites Creek, Usa) on 03/26/2010
Since sodium carbonate that is called for in Bangkok Ted's remedy is hard to find, even in his neck of the woods, ... and since it is expensive to order off of the internet merchants; .... and when you do order it you are not sure if it is really food grade, ... and since you are not sure if the walmart swimming pool pH-up product is really up to food grade standards, or not; .....
you can easily & cheaply make it youself from sodium bi-carboanate that you KNOW is food grade material: by BAKING the baking soda in a oven @ 400 degree F for 1 hour [or longer]. Bake it in a inert glass dish. the bowl should be deep; because the sodium bicarbonate is supposed to jump & scatter around into the oven as the water leaves it.
The baking soda will undergo a change where it loses carbon dioxide molecules, etc, and becomes SODIUM CARBONATE. The baking soda will lose 1/3 of it's mass in the process. The pH of the finished product, SODIUM CARBONATE, should be 11 or 12 on a test strip.
You must store the SODIUM CARBONATE in a sealed glass jar to keep it from drawing moisture and degrading back into sodium bi-carbonate.
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LINKS to information:
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https://www.dmt-nexus.com/forum/default.aspx?g=posts&t=7777
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Infundibulum wrote:
Easy; just check the weight. The conversion of sodium bicarbonate to sodium carbonate is coupled with release of water and carbon dioxide. This makes the final product ~37% lighter, so if you bake 100g of sodium bicarb you should end up with just above 60g of sodium carbonate if the conversion is complete. Refer to the original tek for more details Wink
My friend who refuses to use the internet says he tried this and it worked exactly as you said! After ~4 hrs in the oven at 450F the weight dropped by almost *exactly* 37% (like, within 0.1 g). Pretty cool!
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Hi,
This is a fairly easy one-step tek suited for those who cannot find / afford to buy NaOH/lye, KOH or any other decent base. This tek relies on the manufacturing of sodium carbonate (which is not easy to find where I am coming from - same goes for NaOH, which is totally unheard of) from sodium bicarbonate
The idea is not new - it comes from another thread (http://www.dmt-nexus.com/forum/Default.aspx?g=posts&t=1404) and has already been tried by 69ron who wrote:
Quote:
Yeah...SWIM made sodium carbonate from sodium bicarbonate before just by baking it in an oven. It is very easy to do but causes CO2 gas to form which causes the sodium bicarbonate to jump around in the pan. Make sure you cover the pan with tin foil or your whole oven will be covered in pieces of sodium carbonate.
Sodium bicarbonate powder (aka bicarbonate of soda, baking soda) can be easily found in supermarkets and bakeries. It is a raising agent added in doughs. DO NOT buy baking powder which is a mixture of sodium bicarbonate and tartaric acid.
The aim is to convert sodium bicarbonate which is a very weak base, (pH ~8 ) to sodium carbonate which is a moderately strong base that will easily give you a pH of >12. The reaction is:
2NaHCO3 ----> Na2CO3 H2O CO2
sodiun bicarb ----> sodium carb. water carbon dioxide
And you just need heat to do it. So,
1) Heat up the oven at 200 Celsius
2) put as much sodium bicarbonate as you want in your oven
3) cook it for 1 hour.
That's it, now you have sodium carbonate.
You can now dissolve 12.5 grams of it / litre water for a pH of ~12
.......or 25.0 grams of it / litre water for a pH of ~12.3
.......or 37.5 grams of it / litre water for a pH of ~12.4
.......or 50 grams of it / litre water for a pH of ~12.45
.......or 100 grams of it / litre water for a pH of ~12.5
.......or 200 grams of it / litre water for a pH of ~12.7
Note that upon baking sodium bicarbonate its weight will decrease; In fact, taking the stoichiometry of the reaction and the molecular weights of NaHCO3 and Na2CO3, your final product will be ~37% lighter. This is exactly what you will find, so if you cook 200g of sodium bicarbonate you will get ~ 125g of sodium carbonate.
Enjoy!
[EDIT: EXTREME CARE should be taken when adding sodium carbonate in an acidic solution. Sodium carbonate neutralises acids and this process also liberates carbon dioxide which causes the solution to foam. Just mix some vinegar or lemon juice with sodium carbonate and see.
If one wishes to basify an acidic extract, then sodium carbonate needs to be added slowly, waiting for the foaming to settle, then add a bit more. When addition of sodium carbonate does not cause any foaming this is an indication that the solution is neutral and pH is around 7. From this point onwards one can add as much sodium carbonate as one desires for basification without fearing that foaming will happen.
Many thanks to SyZyGyPSy for bringing this issue up. ]
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Sodium bicarbonate
>| Melting point
Sodium bicarbonate NaHCO3, or sodium hydrogen carbonate, also known as baking soda, bread soda, or bicarbonate of soda, is a soluble white anhydrous or crystalline chemical compound, with a slight alkaline taste resembling that of sodium carbonate. It is found in many mineral springs and also produced artificially.
Sodium bicarbonate, when exposed to an acid, releases carbon dioxide and water:
NaHCO3 HCl ?' NaCl H2O CO2 (gas) : NaHCO3 CH3COOH ?' NaCH3COO H2O CO2 (gas)
Above 60 ?C, it gradually decomposes into sodium carbonate, water and carbon dioxide, and at 200 ?C it is completely decomposed into sodium carbonate:
2NaHCO3 ?' Na2CO3 H2O CO2
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http://www.welltellme.com/discuss/index.php?topic=20783.0
Making Your Own Washing Soda [Sodium Carbonate] Out of Baking Soda [Sodium BiCarbonate] ?
Making Your Own Washing Soda [Sodium Carbonate] Out of Baking Soda [Sodium BiCarbonate]? on: September 24, 2008, 08:17:25 AM ? by ~CKMom~
Baking soda (Sodium Bicarbonate) slowly turns into washing soda (Sodium Carbonate, a.k.a. soda ash) when heated above 140 degrees F. The carbon dioxide released is what makes things rise. If you heat baking soda to 350-400 degrees, it'll turn into washing soda fairly quickly.
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Making Your Own Washing Soda [Sodium Carbonate] Out of Baking Soda [Sodium BiCarbonate]
? Reply #2 on: September 24, 2008, 03:28:00 PM? by ~CKMom~
I've seen this listed - in various forms - at several sites. Some said not to do a large quantity at once, and others didn't mention it. Now that I think about it, the ones that seemed to be a little more technical in their explanation were the ones that said not to do huge quantities, rather than the ones that were more anecdotal. Still, I've only seen it mentioned about 4-5 times on the web from what I could find; that's why I asked.
One site did say that since the water molecules are released from the baking soda with heating, to be sure and place it in an airtight container to ensure that the water is not added back in.
One site I saw this afternoon said that you could heat a small amout in the microwave for about 10 seconds for the same effect. This is all news to me!
Logged
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Making Your Own Washing Soda [Sodium Carbonate] Out of Baking Soda [Sodium BiCarbonate]
? Reply #3 on: September 24, 2008, 08:21:29 PM ? by healthybratt
*
Read these links.
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16485&highlight=baking soda
http://www.thereeftank.com/forums/f58/cooking-baking-soda-93757.html
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/april2004/chem.htm
Quote
And some other sites:
Quote
Soda ash is the active ingredient in washing soda. The chemical name for it is sodium carbonate, chemical formula Na2CO3. It is more basic, that is, less acidic, than sodium bicarbonate (baking soda), whose chemical formula is NaHCO3. The purpose of sodium carbonate is simply to increase pH.
Hydration
Some forms of soda ash (e.g. that labeled as 'washing soda') contain more water molecules than others, which makes them weigh more and be larger for a given number of sodium carbonate molecules - this means that you need to measure out a larger quantity of the hydrated form in order to get the same results. If you buy sodium carbonate without the extra water molecules, then store it for several years in humid conditions, it will absorb some water and appear to lose strength, when in fact it has merely 'bulked up' and needs to be used in larger volumes.
The type of sodium carbonate used in washing soda is a decahydrate, so you need to use a lot more washing soda than you would anhydrous soda ash, perhaps three times as much - assuming that you are able to find pure unadulterated washing soda that is suitable for use in dyeing. (In theory, we should use 2.7 times as much washing soda as a substitute for soda ash, if measuring by weight, or 4.6 times as much if measuring by volume.)
Where can you buy soda ash?
Although you can buy washing soda in the grocery store, this is usually advised against, because some US brands in the past were known to contain optical brighteners, salt, and/or fragrances. However, Arm & Hammer brand "Super Washing Soda" does not now contain any additives, though you must use a larger quantrity due to its greater hydration level (see above). A better source is a swimming pool supplies store, or a hardware store that carries some pool supplies, which will carry pure sodium carbonate (a popular brand is pH Up), sold for the purpose of increasing the pH of pool water. This is typically cheaper than mail-ordering from a dye supplier, and just as good. Beware of suppliers that try to sell you sodium bicarbonate instead of sodium carbonate; bicarbonate is much less basic (it has a lower pH), and will not work for most dyeing recipes.
http://www.pburch.net/dyeing/FAQ/sodaash.shtml
Replied By Peter (Chicago, Il) on 08/11/2010
I purchased 1 lb of the sodium carbonate from nutsonline.com under the baking category. I know some people are paranoid (Armour Hammer as washing soda), I was too. Just in case you want to share with other Earthclinic readers.
Peter