Kidney Stone Remedies from Home!: Q&A
Last Modified on Jan 02, 2013
- RETURN TO MAIN SECTION
- Chinese Herbs for Kidney Stones?
- Magnesium Tablets Heplful for Stones?
- Baking Soda As Preventive
- Does Bottle Lemon Juice Work or Fresh Lemon Juice
- Urine Test for Remedy Effectiveness
- Help Needed
- If Alkalization of the Body Can Help Dissolve Kidney Stones
- Lemon Juice and Olive Oil
- Is There Such a Thing As Bladder Stones
- How to Neutralize the Acid Without Using Baking Soda
01/05/2013: Ted from Bangkok, Thailand replies: I know that Chinese herbs are excellent in dissolving kidney stones, and I encourage you to try. Would like to know what they are also.
But my knowledge is that calcium oxalates are formed by fruit intake. It is confirmed in animals by giving high amounts of fruits. It will be formed within a week. Fruits are full of fructose and they are metabolically converted to oxalic acid. This also is found in honey. So it is possible to prevent them. There is a herb in Thailand that is called stonebreaker [chanca piedra], known to dissolve some stones.
My methods are simple, uninteresting from chemistry but dissolving them is possible with a weak phosphoric acid, I don't know how many drops per glass, but get the pH in the glass of water to 4 or 5. The other way is taking vitamin B6.
I consider fructose an endogenous toxin as it is not required by humans, it causes uric acid to form, is the major cause of cancer (I have countless people getting cancer from eating fruits and with people who are vulnerable to cancer within 2 hours cancer metastasizes), it messes with the blood sugar levels by a backdoor mechanism, allowing free reign of fructose sugar to cause damage to your system causing diabetes, I can go on and on. The best and most common glycation agent that causes human aging is fructose. Our metabolism strictly controls the blood glucose not fructose. The Glycemic index promoted by the internet is useless as most fructose rich fruit juices are low in GI, allowing high uric acid, stones, cancer free reign to do damage in your systems.
But academically, stones can be calcium phosphates, calcium oxalates, struvite (magnesium ammonium phosphate), uric acid (gout), and cystine (hereditary). Much of the problem is calcium oxalate, and the leeching out effect on calcium when sugar in the blood is high and acidity too.
So neutralizing them with calcium actually makes things worse. Temporarily acidifying urine will usually dissolve most stones, but the body must be alkalizing in the long run especially in the intestines because if the intestines get acidic, the oxalic acid also gets through the gut. So avoiding oxalic acid rich foods is just part of the solution. Uric acid occurs mostly from fruits (fructose) and is metabolically converted to uric acid also and we blame only meats! Our average blood stream of fructose is 1 mg/dL. Fruit juices and fruit intake would easily overtake that and it is no wonder we have stones! I have women here who have colon cancer directly from taking honey (manuka honey). In fact, it is well known in medical literature that fructose is a cause of pancreatic cancer, colon cancer and breast cancer.
Ted from Bangkok, Thailand replies: Hi Rob, you can get the answer to your question regarding magnesium being helpful for kidney stones by typing in Beelith tablets for search. These tablets are a combination of magnesium oxide and vitamin B6 and are nonprescription. You will also find many sources for them.
Ted from Bangkok, Thailand replies: Dear D: What I am saying is simply it is best to be cautious practice moderation of not eating too much oxalates and alkalize.
I can give you a simple demonstration of the above opinion to see how a simple baking soda will prevent calcium oxalate stones. As you know, most urine samples are already high in calcium, but it takes a form of a water soluble calcium, which can be calcium chloride, calcium bicarbonate, and other compounds.
If I prepare a small cup of urine sample, and I added a simple oxalic acid let's just say a small amount. For example, a 100 cc urine sample, and I put in only about 100 mg gram (about less than 1/16 of a teaspoon) into this, wait 5 minutes, the urine suddenly becomes cloudy (assuming of course this IS A HEALTHY URINE, if not it WOULD be cloudy). The urine will suddenly have calcium oxalate stones, and precipitate down into the cup samples. The precipitate is calcium oxalate.
If on the other hand, you add say 1/2 teaspoon of baking soda (for demonstration purposes!) into a 100 cc sample of urine. Stir and allow the baking soda to dissolve. Then add the same amount of oxalate into the urine. The calcium oxalate wouldn't form and the urine well be mostly clear solution. The reason is the sodium bicarbonate reacts with the oxalic acid to form sodium oxalate and it is now less reactive to form a calcium oxalate. Thus the urine, or the kidneys with SUFFICIENT levels of bicarbonate would allow a safe excretion of oxalates WITHOUT the stones. Of course, if you PUT TOO MUCH oxalic acid in this soltuion, it will overpower all the alkalinity of the baking soda and form the calcium oxalate, by the virtue of too much acidity of the oxalic acid. Hence, the lesson to be learn is not to take too much oxalic acid AND proper alkalinity. There is no getting around this fact as to who wins the horse race.
Let's look at the human intestines, it works in a similar manner, but with a slight twist. An oxalic acid goes into the intestines, and assuming WITHOUT sufficient alkalinity to neutralize the acidic oxalic acid, it enters the blood stream and sees a calcium. The oxalic acid will be neutralized with calcium in the blood forming calcium oxalates and clogs into the kidneys. On the other hand, if the intestines has sufficient sodium bicarboante already, the oxalic acid will react with this, to form a more water soluble oxalic acid without reacting with the calcium, and if it enters the blood stream, it won't react with the calcium like in the urine sample demonstration and is safely excreted by the kidneys. So if the urine pH is kept near 7, most of these problems of kidneys stones from calcium oxalate will not likely to occur. However, it must always be assumed that we are not purposely eating too much oxalates and also practice moderation from not eating or drinking too much foods high in oxalate too. Caution should always be considered, but as the demonstration I have shown, adding baking soda did prevent forming of calcium oxalates. Mind you, this is not a perfect way to rid of oxalates, and certain other supplements are just as important, such as vitamin C, sodium citrate, potassium citrate, and vitamin B6 which also prevent formation of oxalates too. Thus the body should have at least proper alkalinity, some vitamin C without a deficiency and other things too
09/01/2013: Whateverwhat from New York replies: A 4mm was discovered by cat scan after back and groin pain. Have been trying to pass it with loads of water and Flonase. So far no result. The urologist wants to remove it surgically which is not my preference. This morning drank 3oz pure lemon juice... I need to know how to take the baking soda, what quantity mixed with how much water... How often etc... Can you please help me ? Thank you
Ted from Bangkok, Thailand replies: 'See Louis's email below. Apparently you can used bottled lemon juice!
Ted from Bangkok, Thailand replies: Dear Kelly: So you want a home test urine to know which remedies which responds to your specific kidney stones. I was already doing the same experiments just before opening your email. In order to answer that question, I had to prepare my own set of in vitro test (test tube test), which is basically peeing in a small cup of urine to perform the needed test to know what works for you. However, let's clear the basics first without a lot of going around in circles, where other websites seems to be doing a great job anyway, so you are free to visit them if you want more basic information. Here we just deal with getting ourselves cured, which is sufficient. Basically, there are many components of the stones which leads to kidney stones. All you need to know is the MAJOR components of kidney stones are basically
1. Calcium phosphate (or Tricalcium phosphate, and others in that similar category)
2. Calcium Oxalate
The other issue is if you have the "other stones" basically those other stones will either dissolve itself in either an acid medium or an alkaline medium. That is basically how it works. To simulate a calcium oxalate needed to perform the experiments, I didn't have calcium oxalate handy with me. But I do have oxalic acid. So if I mixed a small amount of oxalic acid DISSOLVED in the urine sample, I would easily get a cloudy solution, made up of mostly calcium oxalates. Calcium oxalate is perceived by the internet world as the most difficult to resolve. With that sample, I divided them into two small cups of the cloudy urine made up of mostly calcium oxalate. In one small cup I place citric acid, which is basically acid and it is the same as lemon juice. In another small cup I placed a sodium citrate (it's just lemon and baking soda for you), which is basically an alkaline solution where pH is about 8. The key is not how much you add, but how much you need to add to get the desired pH, in an alkaline medium which is perceived to be an "attainable" pH in vivo. A normal human urine pH can attain between a range of 5 to 7.5 quite safely when it is done during a brief period. In fact most people's urine pH are in that range anyway. So I am not pushing on the extreme. So, if I would add citric acid just enough to get pH of 5, I would stop, (it can get lower such as 4.5, but that is not attainable in-vivo-your body easily). The other alkaline solution I add enough sodium citrate to get a pH of 7.5. After waiting for about 15 minutes a sodium citrate have some tiny bubble going up, and then another 15 minutes, the solution of the alkaline became clear, while the acid urine pH remains cloudy. So to dissolve the calcium oxalate stone, it requires that you take sodium citrate. Since you will be taking this in fairly large amounts, most whole lime are rather small and it is often equivalent to about 8 teaspoon of lime juice. The amount of baking soda needed to get a sodium citrate is 1/2 teaspoon per lime fruit. So if I am planning to make 20 limes to drink per day, then I will need 20 x 1/2 teaspoon of baking soda. In conclusion, for the calcium oxalate: sodium citrate works, but not lemon. So the hard part is done.
The second part is easier. I mixed a tricalcium phosphate (sometimes they have other form of calcium phosphate) and they are generally the same. As I understood the larger component of the kidney stones is actually made up of more calcium phosphate, I don't know but studies do show that when dissolving those stones, most of it they obtain is actually more than 60% to be calcium phosphate (it can be quite possibly as high as 80%). With the same procedure I add a tricalcium phosphate and dissolve them in a small cup and divided equally to two small cups. Then in one cup, I did exactly the same procedure, which is basically citric acid to attain a pH of 5 and another solution is sodium citrate to attain a pH of 7.5. After about 20-30 minutes, I looked for which solution is clearer, meaning that the clear solution has just dissolved the tricalcium phosphate. As it turns out the citric acid (acid solution) with pH of 5 dissolve the calcium phosphate, while the alkaline solution did not. So the way to dissolve THIS kind of stone is to drink plenty of lemon juice or citric acid, or ascorbic acid, for example.
Now how about YOUR urine. That's simple, just don't do any remedy for a day and make sure the urine becomes cloudy again. The most difficult part of the experiment is to get the citric acid, if you can get them from a supermarkets. Sometimes they might have it. But most bakery supply store do have it so they can make the taste sour in their icing or cakes. When you add citric acid, to the cloudy urine sample you can add as much as you wish and wait for about 30 minutes to see if it responds to dissolving them. If the urine doesn't respond to them, then it is likely that the urine is composed mostly of calcium oxalate, which responds better to sodium citrate alkaline medium. On the other hand if it does get clearer, then make your own lemon juice as much as you wish without much too water to make it more acid, and or take plenty of ascorbic acid vitamin C. If you are a skeptic, then you need to spend more money by getting a pH meter, and baking soda and see if it responds to alkaline solution also, when compared to the citric acid and compare side by side, just to be sure. If it does respond to this alkaline solution, then it is a calcium oxalate. You need to be careful when making sodium citrate, where baking soda is added to citric acid, until the pH solution reaches 8 then wait for reaction to stop before adding to the solution. Or you can always buy a sodium citrate from a chemical supplier.
Now the problem about all this is a stone has two components and in some case people (worse case) who have tried the lemon formula that did not worked, were either not taking enough lemon, add too much water, and did not take it long enough. Or if they DID take it long enough, then most of the stones are NOW calcium oxalate, in which case, a taking plenty of lemon with baking soda to get a sodium citrate is needed to dissolve the rest of the stones. Another variation is seen by taking lemon straight one day and the next day it is lemon with baking soda. The proportion is add just enough baking soda to get the pH of near 8, or a minimum of 1/2 teaspoon of baking soda per one lime fruit. So if you are planning to drink 5 lime fruit that day, it will require 1/2 x 5 teaspoon of baking soda to have sufficient sodium citrate to remove the calcium oxalate from the solution. By alternativing between acid and alkaline this will dissolve both the calcium phosphate and the calcium oxalate portion. The above home test is a simple test that I might do on myself so that I don't have kidney stones. Basically my approach is actually prevention of kidney stones which is basically is to have sufficient baking soda so that the intestines will have sufficient bicarbonates to neutralize the oxalic acid before it enters your intestines, goes into the bloodstream and become a stone. In the same likelihood that I eat too much phosphate, phosphoric acid may form and without sufficient bicarbonate to neutralize that, the phosphoric acid enters the blood stream to form calcium phosphate.
If you eat too much meats and phosphate rich foods, as well as excess calcium supplements (there's a conspiracy theory there) and food with high calcium, chances are your stones usually a good chance is a calcium phosphate. On the other hand, if you are a vegetarian, calcium oxalate is a greater chance, especially if the foods are rich with beans, nuts, cocoa, chocolate, etc. Then the remedy for that still will be baking soda. While lastly if you eat too much uric acid rich foods, such as oysters, bamboo, certain meats (liver), octopus, cucumbers, for example until you get a gout. Taking plenty of baking soda and 5-10 mg of lithium citrate would help. Lithium dissolve uric acid directly, but also baking soda dose slowly dissolved that. For some reason, there's a pattern in many Western diets, that the diets are deficient in alkaline buffers (e.g. baking soda), and the food are acid forming causing many kinds of sickness we see today. Easy way to tell is if urine pH is below neutral of 7. Most are like that. One recent accidental finding that I wasn't looking for is taking plenty of iodine supplements also helps normalize pH too, but the body still needs bicarbonates, citrates, etc. It is just that iodine helps the body control pH for a longer period without the frequency of taking them. The reason for that is iodine normalizes glandular function which is involved in water balance, hormones, pH, and a lot of other glandular activity which on many ocassions if taken in the right amount is actually a fountain of youth. Finally don't count on using other alkaline or acid chemicals. I tried that. Citrates and citric acid are the best form to chelate or remove excess calcium out of the body, while baking soda is seen as a preventive toward kidney stone formation. Eating too much of anything is not good either. The best calcium phosphate chelator, actually is disodium EDTA, but unfortunately it is not easy to find, so we can leave that one out for now.
02/01/2012: Susan from Waterloo, Canada replies: Hello, This is very interesting. I have a huge stone which is beleived to be calcium oxalate due to it showing up on xray and also my acidic urine.
It is interesting you found citric acid did not dissolve the crystals as I have done the lemon juice tx several times and still have the stone. However, I think baking soda did make it smaller. At teh same time as doing the lemons, I was doing baking soda (not at the same time, diff days). My pH was quite high - 7. 5 or 8. A 1. 6cm stone broke into 4 pieces measuring 3, 3, 2, 1 mm which was great but unfortunately it grew again. I wonder if it was the baking soda that broke it down. Is that possible?
Do you know of anyone who used the sodium citrate to dissolve their calcium oxalate stone (as measured by xray or ultrasound )?
Many find success with lemons - I wonder if they have calcium phosphate?
Finally, some may have combination stones so may need to do different methods.
I'm facing surgery to remove mine so I'm really hoping this works for me.
08/28/2012: Melody B from Gloucester Ma USA replies: Ted- I am a combination stone maker- 60% cal phosphate and 40% cal oxalate. I am curious to try this 2 prong approach to try and dissolve my stone. I have a question about the lemons though. My understanding is that while lemons are quite acidic, once they are introduced into the body they have an alkaline effect. How does this factor in if at all? Thanks. Also how much lemon per day and how much water can be added or is it better undiluted?
Ted from Bangkok, Thailand replies: Dear Cassie: Most people who do have kidney stones don't like fruit juices, especially lemon juice. To reduce the size of the kidney stones just drink plenty of lemon juice throughout the day. The citric acid will reduce the size of the stones. Taken every 2 hours. Whole lemon juice is required every time it is taken.
I always know before a kidney stones occur because my urine starts getting cloudy. When this happens I immediately take plenty vitamin B complex and take lemon juice or grape juice. The cloudiness of the urine goes away the next day. The key is to drink water, plenty of water, but not the kind of water you think. It is going to be distilled water so that the calcium will get dissolved faster.
One other way is to drink plenty of coke, which is not a particularly healthy way of doing so but it does get rid of kidney stones primarily as coke is very acid and contains phosphoric acid. Two liter of coke for the whole day might do fine in dissolving. But with 2 cm of stones it appears to take far longer as it is way too big, but certainly it will reduce the pain.
The best option is extracorporeal shock wave lithotripsy (ESWL) which uses sound waves to break the stones away and does not require surgery. For this 2 cm, this appears to be a safer and faster option.
Future prevention, just take plenty of baking soda plus citric acid to alkalize and this will neutralize the body from forming calcium stones. The daily dose is 1/4 teaspoon of baking soda and 1/4 teaspoon of citric acid to 1/2 glass of water as a preventive. Whether or not it works is simple: is the urine cloudy? The cloudy urine is a dead giveaway that the stones are forming in the kidneys. Vitamin B complex is another and so is vitamin C (ascorbic acid) in reducing and preventing kidney stones.
Ted from Bangkok, Thailand replies: Dear Ben: Alkaline diets usually prevent stones from forming by neutralizing the oxalic acid in our intestines from entering the blood. It might have limited ability to dissolve them, but they do get dissolved.
If the intestines have insufficient amount of bicarbonates to neutralized the oxalic acid, it quickly enters the blood and react with the body's calcium to quickly form calcium oxalate, which accumulates in the body rather quickly.
Unfortunately there are many kinds of stones, which makes it difficult to say with certain what you need to do to dissolve it. Some are stones formed by acid, some are by alkaline, there are struvite stones, calcium oxalate stones, uric acid and phosphate stones all due to imbalances of the body.
Assuming you know, which means your urinary pH is known, then you might have some fair idea of how to dissolve it if it doesn't get too big. Generally, acid urine can be dissolved by taking alkalizing diets or making your urine alkaline, and vice versa.
There is some instance of kidney stones being dissolved. In one case my friend tried drinking coke 2 liter for 2 bottle over the course of a day since coke has phosphoric acid. It will dissolve the calcium stones. Doesn't work every time, but seems to work in minor cases, if you caught it on early. Of course, over the long term, he too have to take sodium bicarbonates, potassium citrate in 1:1 ratio to alkalize his urine regularly.
If the body is high in uric acid, then in some cases taking just bicarbonates and plenty of water will remove most of the problem.
One reason I never have stones is before they do cloudy urine is often a sign. And by instinct I knew they were calcium in the urine causing it. So what I did was take plenty of vitamin C, vitamin B complex and some baking soda. The next day it was all normal.
While I cannot say what conditions you have, you can observe your own cloudiness of urine as a prevention, and who knows, if you can reduce its cloudiness that might also help reduce the stones size after a couple of weeks.
You just have to observe both the color of your urine and its cloudiness. The best way is to put it in a small clear cup so you can observe better. Then you will know whether your diets are too acid or too alkaline. Just remember, too yellow in a urine cup (instead of pale yellow) often means you don't drink enough water. A cloudy one indicates dietary imbalances: not enough b complex, vitamin C, etc.
One case I noticed a person who had excessively large stones. I knew that their dietary preferences was the cause. In that particular case, the person never liked consuming oranges, vitamin C, alkalizing diet (baking soda), and neither does he take vitamin B complex throughout his life.
Ted from Bangkok, Thailand replies: Dear Bruce: You need to find a way to STOP any stones from forming in your kidney. The theory of stones formation is really simple. If you eat food rich in oxalic acid, the oxalic acid goes into your bloodstream, reacts with the body's calcium and becomes calcium oxalates in your kidney.
It is the same with calcium phosphates. Phosphoric acid enters the blood stream via the intestines or stomach, reacts with the body's calcium and it forms calcium phosphate.
The easy way to prevent calcium oxalates OR calcium phosphate from forming the first place, is to get the body with enough buffers to protect the acids from entering your body in the first place.
If the body's intestines have SUFFICIENT sodium bicarbonates, the sodium bicarbonate will react with oxalic acid to form sodium oxalate and these will excrete out in the feces instead of going into the blood stream as the buffer will neutralized them before such entry. The same is true for phosphoric acid, the sodium bicarbonate will react with it to form sodium phosphate and this will prevent the formation of calcium phosphate and will quietly rid from your body via the feces.
The trick is to take between 1/4 -1/2 teaspoon of baking soda twice a day. Once in morning and once in evening on an empty stomach. It takes a week for the body to have sufficient buffers and your body will no longer have stones.
As in all cases, excess calcium is also indicative of magnesium deficiency. SO you need to take both vitamin B6 and magnesium, so the body can properly utilize the calcium as well.
Ted from Bangkok, Thailand replies: Kidney stones passes through the bladder. They are technically not called bladder stones. The best protection against future stones, is 1/4 teaspoon of baking soda taken twice a day every day. It takes two weeks at least to stop the body from leeching calcium from the bones or from intestines absorbing more acids than it needs. This should be taken as long as possible to prevent stones formation. This is a condition of acidosis. Magnesium allows the body to better utilize calcium better. So even if you do have it, it is probably means you once had it and it is simply draining out the stones that are left in it. If it is too small, sometimes X rays won't see it.
Ted from Bangkok, Thailand replies: Dear Ben: You can use potassium citrate and potassium bicarbonate as a good substitute for sodium bicarbonate. Unfortunately for potassium bicarbonate and potassium citrate is a bit harder to find for most people. And for home remedies, the use of common everyday ingredients is a must. If you don't mind finding something that is best for you then potassium citrate and potassium bicarbonate should prevent sodium retention.
In certain cases cranberry will dissolve stones by the virtue of it being acid. Acid can dissolve calcium carbonate stones too, and so does drinking 1 liter of coke which is high in phosphoric acid. However acid drinks will not prevent you from forming more stones and bicarbonates are good preventive by neutralizing the acid before it comes in your body and create oxalate stones. The issue of why stones form are many, but usually it depends on the type of stones. At other times, nanobacteria creates stones, and since cranberry is high in both mannose and sodium benzoate, those will kill the nanobacteria in your kidney, and the acid will dissolve certain kinds of stones too. Not every stones will dissolve them in acid it depends on certain kinds of stones.
Many other supplements will reduce sodium retention as it has diuretic properties, such as 200 mg. Alpha Lipoid Acid, 10 mg of lithium citrate, or even potassium bicarbonate is helpful too.
If I should have problems of blood pressure, I will take some 200 mg of Alpha Lipoid Acid. However, if I am in a hurry and wanted a stronger diuretic, then I would drink one cup of black coffee. I will urinate all day if I do this.
04/21/2009: Willow from Coeur D Alene, ID replies: Ted, It sounds like you have done extensive studying on this kidney stone problem. Are you a healer of sorts? I found your contributions to be quite informative.
I am howerver wondering about the bicarbonate. Am I understanding that bicarbonate blocks something in the system to keep the calcium from building up? If so, is that healthy? I had my first kidney stone 3 days ago and have been searching since to find answers on how to dissolve them as well as to keep them from forming. I have been doing a total system cleanse and believe this cleanse moved the stone so now I am horrified to continue the cleanse even tho I know it needs to be continued to remove any other ugly things residing in my body.