Dissolve Kidney Stones Questions
*Ted, an independent contributor, offers information and opinions on Earth Clinic, not as a substitute for professional medical prevention, diagnosis, or treatment. Please consult with your physician, pharmacist, or health care provider before taking any home remedies or supplements or following any treatment suggested by Ted or by anyone on this site. Only your health care provider, personal physician, or pharmacist can provide you with advice on what is safe and effective for your unique needs or diagnose your particular medical history.
WHAT REMEDY IS BEST FOR LARGE STONE?
11/12/2008: Paul from Napier, New Zealand writes: "ok so ive read feedback from lots of people saying some of these remedys work,,however most of the people are complaining about sevre pain and blood in the urine for a few days,,but nobody seems to have stones larger than 3-5mm so im not sure they know what real kidney pain is.
try this on for size...I have been passing blood on and off for over 6 months and have had mild pain which in the last 3 months has become sevre for around 12 months.I had an ultra sound and i have a single stone in the left kidney measuring 1.2mm x 1.5mm (now thats a stone) and multiple stones around 3-5mm in my right kidney,so i know what kidney stones are all about,,even if my friends and family dont belive how sore i am.
Im wanting to know which remedy is best and if it will work for stones of this magnitude as i would like to avoid surgery or the costs of lithotripsy if i possibly can,,im on the short list at the public hospital but have been for 2 months and dont know how long it will take and cant bear this pain any longer,,PLEASE HELP! "
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CAN VITAMIN C MAKE KIDNEY STONES WORSE?
10/13/2008: Anna from Maryville, USA writes: "Hi all, Every time I take Ester-C my back hurts. I know I have kidney stones. Wonder if it could be making them worse? Anna "
10/29/2008: TP from Montreal, Canada replies: "Yes, Vitamin C can definitely make oxalate stones worse. It significantly increases the amount of oxalate in the urine, which is a stone forming element. These patients should not take vitamin C suppliments."
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CARBONATE APATITIE AND CALCIUM OXALATE KIDNEY STONES
07/31/2008: Kerri from Green Bay, WI writes: "Looking for a remedy for a stones that are 90 % Carbonate Apatite and 10 % Calcium Oxalate. Would greatly appreciate any suggestions.
Kerri"
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EXACT RECIPE FOR KIDNEY STONES NEEDED
07/25/2008: Emily from Downers Grove, Il, Illinois writes: "Greeings~ What a nice website...people helping people get healthier! I can't find the exact directions for the kidney stone dissolver using lemon juice and olive oil...can someone please help me out as I am in pain. Thanks so much, Em.
I see the comments etc. but no specific recipe with times of dosage."
07/26/2008: Earth Clinic replies: "Try this link: http://www.earthclinic.com/CURES/kidney_stones.html#LEMONOLIVE"
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NEEDS REMEDIES FOR HUSBAND WITH GOUT AND KIDNEY STONES
07/21/2008: Sherryl from Orlando, Florida writes: "Kidney Stones and Gout: After doing much research i have found this site, i love it, so now i am hoping someone out there can advise me, my husband and me sometimes ofter suffer from bouts of GOUT , so severe once he landed at the emergency room on a weekend, with tons of anti-inflammatories etc, now the past month , and the first time he has had the 2nd kidney stone, this time he had the scan etc and was in last week for the the procedure to remove the stone that they discovered was not there, well , his Urologist was going away and has left a stint, i think thats what its called in his kidney and today he is removing it, except he is in extreme agony, and now this morning says he thnks the gout is back as his one ankle is totally swollen and he has a temp.i am so sick of all these Dr that really dont care about people, except money, now i am so worried about my husband,he is now searching for kidney issues........... i must add that we drink this alkaline water, and i am wondering if it MAY be the problem, i am not sure. I have tried researching but there is nothing except positivity about it, so i am not sure, to me it appears his body is full of acid..."
07/21/2008: Joyce from Joelton, Tn replies: "To Sherryl from Orlando: Hi Sherryl, Look a little further on EC and you will find the olive oil/lemon juice remedy for removing kidney stones that many of EC users swear by after trying it. As for that gout, I don't know whether poke sallet (poke weed) grows that far south or not, but pokeberries are great for those painful joint problems. I have been taking them since developing total body pain following a bout of subacute pyelonephritis -even my ribs hurt when I breathed. Not knowing how to use them, I started taking about 5 poke berries 4 times per day and increased them 2 or more per day until I was taking l5 or 20 pokeberries 4 times a day. If poke grows there just find you a good supply of them, start taking them as soon as they ripen, and you can dehydrate any excess and keep on taking them as long as you need them. Hopefully, your supply will last until the next years berries come in. Another thing I would strongly suggest since you are both having kidney/gout problems is to stop all carbonated beverages if you are still drinking cokes and others. They are harmful to the kidneys."
07/21/2008: Alain from Ottawa, Canada replies: "Sorry it is a long post, but I hope it will interest many.
Hi Sherryl
People who do not have gout cannot understand the pain one can have. I know because I have it. But it is pretty much under control, and I no longer use ibuprofen. That means I treating my condition with no medicaments.
The most dramatic thing that happened to me was the understanding of the pH balance and its effect on gout. So, the best thing is for you too to convince yourself of it. I would strongly suggest you to buy pH paper strips and measure the pH of the urine. When I had gout attacks, my urine pH was around 5, which is really low. pH of 7 is neutral. pH lower than 7 indicates acidity. Urine pH should be between 6.5 and 7.0.
Here's a text I took somewhere:
"Uric acid's solubility in urine is dependent on the pH, or acidity of the urine. At a pH of 7 (neutral), urine can dissolve 1000 times the amount of uric acid than at pH 5 (acidic). Most people who form frequent uric acid stones have an acidic urine. Urine becomes acidic in response to diet. Proteins are the greatest source of acid in the diet. After a meal high in protein conditions become ideal for stone formation. So avoid eating large amounts of meat at one sitting and drink plenty of fluids with your meal. Adding some foods which have an anti-acid effect into the meal can also help."
So, something often overlooked: Drink a lot of water. It will help improve the elimination of uric acid.
Reduce sugar, industrial food, especially soft drinks. To reduce one unit of acid, it may require five to twenty unit of alkali.
In the short term, if you want a quick fix go to: http://www.earthclinic.com/Remedies/alkalizing_formulas.html
If one is overweight and/or has water retention problem, use a formula using potassium bicarbonate so to better achieve a proper sodium/potassium balance.
The most basic formulas is a mix of an acid with a base in a glass of water.
The acid may come from Apple Acid Vinegar, Lemon juice, Lime juice or Citric Acid powder.
The base comes from the sodium bicarbonate (aka baking soda) and optionally with the addition of potassium bicarbonate. I favour a formula containing both as opposed to just sodium bicarbonate.
The easiest is just the formula with ACV and sodium bicarbonate. But try one. If one gets relieve, then acidity is certainly the problem.
Since one key to alkalizing is to get in the nutrition alkalizing minerals like calcium, magnesium, as also are sodium and potassium, I think EC%uFFFDs fountain of youth formula which uses blackstrap molasses along with ACV and BS is a further improvement.
http://www.earthclinic.com/Remedies/fountain_of_youth.html#SIMPLERECIPE
I might suggest to add 1/8 teaspoon of coral calcium powder to increase the alkalizing mineral content of the drink.
For more information about acidosis and pH balance you can go to:
http://www.earthclinic.com/CURES/pH_questions.html
http://www.preventdisease.com/fitness/nutrition/articles/acid_alkaline.html
http://www.selfgrowth.com/articles/Murphy8.html
http://www.earthclinic.com/CURES/pH.html
http://www.earthclinic.com/CURES/pH_questions.html
http://www.earthclinic.com/CURES/pH.html#TED
http://www.earthclinic.com/CURES/gout.html
http://www.electroherbalism.com/Naturopathy/Regimens/Balancing_pH_Regimen.htm
http://www.alkalizeforhealth.net/cancerselftreatment.htm#alkalinity
ph and uric acid
http://content.karger.com/produktedb/produkte.asp?doi=10.1159/000082551&typ=pdf
http://www.hollywoodurology.com/PDF/uric acid stones.pdf
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BJI/is_8_30/ai_62766833
The formula I use now is a little more complicated but improved quite a bit my ailment. It is called the moreless alkalizing drink. You can find it in the curezone pH balance forum:
http://curezone.com/forums/f.asp?f=740
The forum is about the pH balance and offers a lot more. One of the alkalizing tools the site suggests is the alkalizing foot bath.
Whole list of protocols:
http://curezone.com/forums/fm.asp?i=1213401#i
Foot baths:
http://www.curezone.com/forums/fm.asp?i=1028933#i
Detox baths:
http://curezone.com/forums/fm.asp?i=1028932#i
http://curezone.com/forums/fm.asp?i=1213401#i
All the protocols and "recipes" are very cheap compared to medication.
Also, gout may be related with a diet with too much proteins. If after urination one notices bubbles, it could be sign for such. Moreless suggests a pinch of Epson salt (preferably food grade) with each meal. The magnesium from the Epson salt will help the liver and the kidney eliminate the excess of protein.
Once the pH balance is understood, with the help of the pH paper you will be able to find what food is good and what to avoid.
I know that's a lot. But having gout is not a joke. It requires a lot of efforts. But how long can one live with the pain. The last time I had a gout attack, most of the pain was gone after 12 hours with the use of alkalizing drinks. Before, it could last days. No more inflamed ankles. It took me two or three months to achieve this.
So good luck.
"
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KIDNEY STONE IN THE LOWER QUADRANT OF THE KIDNEY
05/27/2008: Karen from Ottawa, Canada writes: "I have a question that I would like readers to respond to, but I am also interested in whether or not the lemon juice and olive oil recipe worked for people in my situation. Please post where you feel would be the most beneficial. Thanks.
I have been reading the comments regarding the olive oil and lemon juice concoction. I just have one question. Will this work if your kidney stone is located in the kidney? Mine seem to develop in the lower quadrant of the kidney, where they have to defy gravity to pass. It appears that most of the comments I read, the stones were blocking or in the ureter, therefore already on their way out. I have just had lithotrypsy for my current stone, with the hopes that I will pass the remains. If anyone has had success with stones actually in the kidney, I will definitelty try this remedy next time."
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SURGERY VS NO SURGERY: TRADE OFF?
04/25/2008: jacques from Grants Pass, OREGON writes: "Why we do not have any pills than can really for sure dissolve kidney stones any type of stones yet? Where are the labs working on that and where are the result if any? We are in 2008, million have to suffer and pay billion to have those stones removed all over the world. I do not have any insurance anymore after 30 years of kidney stones. With many operations including: One so far (3 years ago) Percutaneous nephrolithotomy or nephrolithotripsy. Open surgery one only (30 years ago) Many Extracorporeal shock wave lithotripsy. Many Arthroscopy Now without insurance ( too expensive can't afford it anymore!) Don't get me wrong all the doctors and hospitals in the US are absolutely fantastic. with or without insurance. Now because I'm force to wait for the stones to pass and they do pass (Thanks God!) sometime after 3 to 4 weeks! My question is: When I had insurance I systematically agree with the doctors that was telling me that I had to have surgery otherwise I could be damaging for my kidney.Now than I can't have surgery anymore I wait sometime 3 to 4 weeks before the stones passes.And they do so far since my last surgery, 3 years ago. What is the trade off versus having the surgery or not having the surgery? for me not having surgery for that last3 years has been a blessing so far... Thank you."
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MAGNESIUM TABLETS HEPLFUL FOR STONES?
03/20/2008: Rob from Cincinnati, Ohio writes: "olive oil and lemon juice. I have had stones for 20 yrs ranging from 2mm - 5mm. er with iv and pain med passed 2mm stone, had surgery to get rid of 5mm stone now i got a 4mm stone in the lower part of kidney. i tryed oil and lemon juice all it did for me was made me sick.i did notice a very small blood red partical in strainer about size of pin head then a couple times very small black specks in strainer pain in scrodum gone but burning sensation in my back has started. i drink homemade lemon aid and take a shot glass full of real lemon juice every couple hours.dont know if it`s helping or not.does magn tabs help? anyone who can help can email me at robdogg487@aol.com i feel for everyone on here with stones cause i know your pain thanks"
Ted from Bangkok, Thailand replies: "Hi Rob, you can get the answer to your question regarding magnesium being helpful for kidney stones by typing in Beelith tablets for search. These tablets are a combination of magnesium oxide and vitamin B6 and are nonprescription. You will also find many sources for them."
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REMEDY TO REMOVE STONE IN THE UPPER PART OF THE KIDNEY
02/23/2008: Ivan from Toronto, Canada writes: "I am 47 yrs. old male and have been having kidney stones/sand for 20 yrs.' May mom and dad (still alive) have had their fare share of kidney stones as well. For the last 20 yrs. I Ihave had about 6-7 incidents and only the first time (1987) I was able to see the stone when passed. In the rest of the cases - it just very strong pain for 1 day, yes it is long, then nothing. Right now my doctor told me I have bigger one this time 8mm by 5 mm somewhere in the upper part of my Left kidney that is not likely to go on its own. I have absolutely NO symptoms right now, it was discovered on routine ultrasound. Whlile I am awainting an appoint. with urologist - I came accross this forum and I very much would like to dissolve the stone on my own. Since the stone is in the upper part of the kidney - can I still use the recepie with 4 oz Lemon and 4 oz Olive oil ? I read (here) that stones NOT moving down yet, may not benefit from this recepie., is it true ? I still want to try it - any side-effects (besides staying close to the washroom) ? Is there any remedy that will reach the upper part lodged stones ? Thanks a lot in advance !"
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CALCIUM OXYLATE STONES DIFFERENT?
01/02/2008: Matthew from San Jose, CA writes: "I was urinating blood and went to my Urologist. He sent me to get a CT scan and they found a 8mm stone in my left kidney and a 5mm in the right. Today I am going to have Lithotripsy for the first stone and my doctor says that I will need a second trip to take care of the 5mm stone. This is not my first bout with stones or Lithotripsy (I had it done 10 years ago). I was lucky in the last few times with stones that they were able to pass by drinking water. My first bout of stones were the calcium oxylate type and I believe all of them have been the same (they all had the same color). I am wondering if the lemon juice and olive oil blend really works with the calcium oxalate stone type since there all conflicting posts with the pages that talk about stones."
01/23/2008: Ben from Phoenix, Arizona replies: "I've been researching this online for awhile.' You were wondering if this solution worked for calcium based kidney stones. One website I was reading on says that 80% of all stones are the calcium ones. Looking at how many peolpe said this solution worked, also about 80%. Maybe this solution works only for the calcium stones? Just a thought. I'm gonna try this myself. I've had those kind of stones for the last 8 years. Running helps. Caffeine, nuts, and milk seem to cause flare ups."
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BAKING SODA AS PREVENTIVE
12/28/2007: D from Michigan writes: "Hello I read your recent article on using baking soda to prevent formation of CaOxalate stones. Please specifics on how oxalate kidney stone sufferers should use this supplement as part of their strategy to prevent stone formation. Are what you saying is that a low acid producing diet is more important than lox oxalate diet for oxalate stone formers?"
Ted from Bangkok, Thailand replies: "Dear D: What I am saying is simply it is best to be cautious practice moderation of not eating too much oxalates and alkalize.
I can give you a simple demonstration of the above opinion to see how a simple baking soda will prevent calcium oxalate stones. As you know, most urine samples are already high in calcium, but it takes a form of a water soluble calcium, which can be calcium chloride, calcium bicarbonate, and other compounds.
If I prepare a small cup of urine sample, and I added a simple oxalic acid let's just say a small amount. For example, a 100 cc urine sample, and I put in only about 100 mg gram (about less than 1/16 of a teaspoon) into this, wait 5 minutes, the urine suddenly becomes cloudy (assuming of course this IS A HEALTHY URINE, if not it WOULD be cloudy). The urine will suddenly have calcium oxalate stones, and precipitate down into the cup samples. The precipitate is calcium oxalate.
If on the other hand, you add say 1/2 teaspoon of baking soda (for demonstration purposes!) into a 100 cc sample of urine. Stir and allow the baking soda to dissolve. Then add the same amount of oxalate into the urine. The calcium oxalate wouldn't form and the urine well be mostly clear solution. The reason is the sodium bicarbonate reacts with the oxalic acid to form sodium oxalate and it is now less reactive to form a calcium oxalate. Thus the urine, or the kidneys with SUFFICIENT levels of bicarbonate would allow a safe excretion of oxalates WITHOUT the stones. Of course, if you PUT TOO MUCH oxalic acid in this soltuion, it will overpower all the alkalinity of the baking soda and form the calcium oxalate, by the virtue of too much acidity of the oxalic acid. Hence, the lesson to be learn is not to take too much oxalic acid AND proper alkalinity. There is no getting around this fact as to who wins the horse race.
Let's look at the human intestines, it works in a similar manner, but with a slight twist. An oxalic acid goes into the intestines, and assuming WITHOUT sufficient alkalinity to neutralize the acidic oxalic acid, it enters the blood stream and sees a calcium. The oxalic acid will be neutralized with calcium in the blood forming calcium oxalates and clogs into the kidneys. On the other hand, if the intestines has sufficient sodium bicarboante already, the oxalic acid will react with this, to form a more water soluble oxalic acid without reacting with the calcium, and if it enters the blood stream, it won't react with the calcium like in the urine sample demonstration and is safely excreted by the kidneys. So if the urine pH is kept near 7, most of these problems of kidneys stones from calcium oxalate will not likely to occur. However, it must always be assumed that we are not purposely eating too much oxalates and also practice moderation from not eating or drinking too much foods high in oxalate too. Caution should always be considered, but as the demonstration I have shown, adding baking soda did prevent forming of calcium oxalates. Mind you, this is not a perfect way to rid of oxalates, and certain other supplements are just as important, such as vitamin C, sodium citrate, potassium citrate, and vitamin B6 which also prevent formation of oxalates too. Thus the body should have at least proper alkalinity, some vitamin C without a deficiency and other things too"
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ASSISTANCE REGARDING ANY REMEDY FOR STONES
12/07/2007: Kelly from Toronto, Canada writes: "I am desparate to try this as I can't take the pain anymore. Plus going on vacation next week (no cancellation insurance) and don't want to end up in a hospital while abroad. The stone started after I booked the trip. The problem is that I am allergic to citrus fruits. Has anyone tried something else that worked for them? My dad suggested apple cider vinegar. If not, I will just have to go with the lemon juice and be covered in hives for a week!"
12/08/2007: Rita from Burson, CA replies: "re Kidney Stones - Olive oil and lemon juice -- This is in response to Kelly.' If you are allergic to citrus, you can try deep frying 2-1/2 cups of walnuts in olive oil. After they cool, put in blender or food processor with 2-1/4 Tablespoons of honey. Eat over a 24 hour period. I am doing this as we speak for my husband. It worked the last time for him. You can also try radishes crushed in red wine and sip 3 times a day. I don't have amounts. I tried both at the same time with my husband last time, and he got better by the next day."
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DOES BOTTLE LEMON JUICE WORK OR FRESH LEMON JUICE
10/09/2007: Judy from Bowie, USA writes: "For the Yays, Does lemon juice in the bottle work ok, or does it need to be fresh lemons?"
Ted from Bangkok, Thailand replies: "'See Louis's email below. Apparently you can used bottled lemon juice!"
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INFORMATION REQUIRED FOR DISSOLVING STONES
10/04/2007: RICHARD from PHILA, PA writes: "My urologist told me my kidney stone, though it gives me no pain whatsoever, is too large to pass. Everything I've read here pertains to PASSING stones.' Has anyone information on DISSOLVING one that is too large to pass...without ripping my guts out? THANK YOU, ONE AND ALL!! RICH"
10/08/2007: Marinette from Cleveland, USA replies: "This is in response to Richard who wrote on 10/4/07 asking how to dissolve kidney stones.' Richard, it is the lemon juice that breaks down the stones so they can pass. I heard that Watermelon and Apple Juice are helpful, also. My brother had a kidney stone that was too large to pass, and he took 4 or 5 lemons, cut them in half and drank the juice of 1/2 lemon in a glass of water every hour or so throughout he day. He said he also took a little olive oil - about a teaspoon a day, right off the spoon. Also, he drank a lot of plain water. The stone broke up for him and he passed it. He also said to tell people not to drink any alcohol, as this irritates the kidneys more."
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KIDNEY STONES AND GALLSTONES
08/27/2007: Pat from Columbus, Ohio writes: "These are all fascinating testimonials, but I'd like to know how people know they are passing kidney stones and not gallstones, since the pain areas are similar and the same olive oil and lemon juice regimen is used for gallstones as well. thanks"
09/01/2007: Sharon from Wheaton, IL replies: "To answer this question, see my notes following her question:' "QUESTION FOR THE YEAS 8/27/2007: Pat from Columbus, Ohio writes: "These are all fascinating testimonials, but I'd like to know how people know they are passing kidney stones and not gallstones, since the pain areas are similar and the same olive oil and lemon juice regimen is used for gallstones as well. thanks" "
My answer - gall stone pain and symptoms are not the same as kidney stone pain/symptoms. Among other things, gall stones do not create visual blood in your urine, nor pain in your low back and flank area. From personal experience, passing a kidney stone feels very much like childbirth labor. Also, if you've had an Xray or CT scan, you know what kind of stones you have."
01/31/2008: Jeff from Columbue, GA replies: "The answer is simple: kidney stones pass through the urinary track, gall stones pass throught the digestive track.' They exit the body from different places."
04/15/2009: Kevin from Tempe, AZ replies: "I had a Kidney Stone that was stuck in my urinary track. I have had the lithotripsy procedure done 7 times in the last 10 years. I read these articles about the lemon juice. I drank 4 oz of concentrate lemon, the same stuff that you get at Sam's club or Costco. I did this 3 times a day for 2 days. I woke up on the third day there was no urgency to urinate, the kidney stone had passed. 2 weeks later I had another one, I repeated the procedure I passed it 4 days later. This is a god send for me not to have to go through having lithotripsy again."
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URINE TEST FOR REMEDY EFFECTIVENESS
06/03/2007: Kelly from Michigan writes: "Dear Ted, I tried the oil and lemon juice for my kidney stone(s)? I don't know what kind I have since I just had an ultrasound done 2 days ago, and only have a verbal confirmation that I have a mild case. I'm not exactly sure what a mild case means, (ie - small stone or a stone that's not currently left the kidney). Anyway, no luck yet with the lemon juice/olive oil remedy. Tried it twice at the end of the day. Also tried drinking lots of water and lemon juice (lemonaid). My question for you is: If I want to try your suggestion for "testing" my urine, should I stop drinking water and using the suggested remedies for a while, first? When I checked my urine this morning, it was not cloudy at all, but I had been drinking lemon juice and lots of water the night before. Also, will the coke suggestion work if it's diet coke? I have problems with yeast infections, and the excessive amounts of sugars might cause them to flare up."
Ted from Bangkok, Thailand replies: "Dear Kelly: So you want a home test urine to know which remedies which responds to your specific kidney stones. I was already doing the same experiments just before opening your email. In order to answer that question, I had to prepare my own set of in vitro test (test tube test), which is basically peeing in a small cup of urine to perform the needed test to know what works for you. However, let's clear the basics first without a lot of going around in circles, where other websites seems to be doing a great job anyway, so you are free to visit them if you want more basic information. Here we just deal with getting ourselves cured, which is sufficient. Basically, there are many components of the stones which leads to kidney stones. All you need to know is the MAJOR components of kidney stones are basically
1. Calcium phosphate (or Tricalcium phosphate, and others in that similar category)
2. Calcium Oxalate
The other issue is if you have the "other stones" basically those other stones will either dissolve itself in either an acid medium or an alkaline medium. That is basically how it works. To simulate a calcium oxalate needed to perform the experiments, I didn't have calcium oxalate handy with me. But I do have oxalic acid. So if I mixed a small amount of oxalic acid DISSOLVED in the urine sample, I would easily get a cloudy solution, made up of mostly calcium oxalates. Calcium oxalate is perceived by the internet world as the most difficult to resolve. With that sample, I divided them into two small cups of the cloudy urine made up of mostly calcium oxalate. In one small cup I place citric acid, which is basically acid and it is the same as lemon juice. In another small cup I placed a sodium citrate (it's just lemon and baking soda for you), which is basically an alkaline solution where pH is about 8. The key is not how much you add, but how much you need to add to get the desired pH, in an alkaline medium which is perceived to be an "attainable" pH in vivo. A normal human urine pH can attain between a range of 5 to 7.5 quite safely when it is done during a brief period. In fact most people's urine pH are in that range anyway. So I am not pushing on the extreme. So, if I would add citric acid just enough to get pH of 5, I would stop, (it can get lower such as 4.5, but that is not attainable in-vivo-your body easily). The other alkaline solution I add enough sodium citrate to get a pH of 7.5. After waiting for about 15 minutes a sodium citrate have some tiny bubble going up, and then another 15 minutes, the solution of the alkaline became clear, while the acid urine pH remains cloudy. So to dissolve the calcium oxalate stone, it requires that you take sodium citrate. Since you will be taking this in fairly large amounts, most whole lime are rather small and it is often equivalent to about 8 teaspoon of lime juice. The amount of baking soda needed to get a sodium citrate is 1/2 teaspoon per lime fruit. So if I am planning to make 20 limes to drink per day, then I will need 20 x 1/2 teaspoon of baking soda. In conclusion, for the calcium oxalate: sodium citrate works, but not lemon. So the hard part is done.
The second part is easier. I mixed a tricalcium phosphate (sometimes they have other form of calcium phosphate) and they are generally the same. As I understood the larger component of the kidney stones is actually made up of more calcium phosphate, I don't know but studies do show that when dissolving those stones, most of it they obtain is actually more than 60% to be calcium phosphate (it can be quite possibly as high as 80%). With the same procedure I add a tricalcium phosphate and dissolve them in a small cup and divided equally to two small cups. Then in one cup, I did exactly the same procedure, which is basically citric acid to attain a pH of 5 and another solution is sodium citrate to attain a pH of 7.5. After about 20-30 minutes, I looked for which solution is clearer, meaning that the clear solution has just dissolved the tricalcium phosphate. As it turns out the citric acid (acid solution) with pH of 5 dissolve the calcium phosphate, while the alkaline solution did not. So the way to dissolve THIS kind of stone is to drink plenty of lemon juice or citric acid, or ascorbic acid, for example.
Now how about YOUR urine. That's simple, just don't do any remedy for a day and make sure the urine becomes cloudy again. The most difficult part of the experiment is to get the citric acid, if you can get them from a supermarkets. Sometimes they might have it. But most bakery supply store do have it so they can make the taste sour in their icing or cakes. When you add citric acid, to the cloudy urine sample you can add as much as you wish and wait for about 30 minutes to see if it responds to dissolving them. If the urine doesn't respond to them, then it is likely that the urine is composed mostly of calcium oxalate, which responds better to sodium citrate alkaline medium. On the other hand if it does get clearer, then make your own lemon juice as much as you wish without much too water to make it more acid, and or take plenty of ascorbic acid vitamin C. If you are a skeptic, then you need to spend more money by getting a pH meter, and baking soda and see if it responds to alkaline solution also, when compared to the citric acid and compare side by side, just to be sure. If it does respond to this alkaline solution, then it is a calcium oxalate. You need to be careful when making sodium citrate, where baking soda is added to citric acid, until the pH solution reaches 8 then wait for reaction to stop before adding to the solution. Or you can always buy a sodium citrate from a chemical supplier.
Now the problem about all this is a stone has two components and in some case people (worse case) who have tried the lemon formula that did not worked, were either not taking enough lemon, add too much water, and did not take it long enough. Or if they DID take it long enough, then most of the stones are NOW calcium oxalate, in which case, a taking plenty of lemon with baking soda to get a sodium citrate is needed to dissolve the rest of the stones. Another variation is seen by taking lemon straight one day and the next day it is lemon with baking soda. The proportion is add just enough baking soda to get the pH of near 8, or a minimum of 1/2 teaspoon of baking soda per one lime fruit. So if you are planning to drink 5 lime fruit that day, it will require 1/2 x 5 teaspoon of baking soda to have sufficient sodium citrate to remove the calcium oxalate from the solution. By alternativing between acid and alkaline this will dissolve both the calcium phosphate and the calcium oxalate portion. The above home test is a simple test that I might do on myself so that I don't have kidney stones. Basically my approach is actually prevention of kidney stones which is basically is to have sufficient baking soda so that the intestines will have sufficient bicarbonates to neutralize the oxalic acid before it enters your intestines, goes into the bloodstream and become a stone. In the same likelihood that I eat too much phosphate, phosphoric acid may form and without sufficient bicarbonate to neutralize that, the phosphoric acid enters the blood stream to form calcium phosphate.
If you eat too much meats and phosphate rich foods, as well as excess calcium supplements (there's a conspiracy theory there) and food with high calcium, chances are your stones usually a good chance is a calcium phosphate. On the other hand, if you are a vegetarian, calcium oxalate is a greater chance, especially if the foods are rich with beans, nuts, cocoa, chocolate, etc. Then the remedy for that still will be baking soda. While lastly if you eat too much uric acid rich foods, such as oysters, bamboo, certain meats (liver), octopus, cucumbers, for example until you get a gout. Taking plenty of baking soda and 5-10 mg of lithium citrate would help. Lithium dissolve uric acid directly, but also baking soda dose slowly dissolved that. For some reason, there's a pattern in many Western diets, that the diets are deficient in alkaline buffers (e.g. baking soda), and the food are acid forming causing many kinds of sickness we see today. Easy way to tell is if urine pH is below neutral of 7. Most are like that. One recent accidental finding that I wasn't looking for is taking plenty of iodine supplements also helps normalize pH too, but the body still needs bicarbonates, citrates, etc. It is just that iodine helps the body control pH for a longer period without the frequency of taking them. The reason for that is iodine normalizes glandular function which is involved in water balance, hormones, pH, and a lot of other glandular activity which on many ocassions if taken in the right amount is actually a fountain of youth. Finally don't count on using other alkaline or acid chemicals. I tried that. Citrates and citric acid are the best form to chelate or remove excess calcium out of the body, while baking soda is seen as a preventive toward kidney stone formation. Eating too much of anything is not good either. The best calcium phosphate chelator, actually is disodium EDTA, but unfortunately it is not easy to find, so we can leave that one out for now."
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OLIVE OIL AND LEMON JUICE
05/19/2007: Tom from Gettysburg, Pennsylvania, USA writes: "will olive oil and lemon juice allow a 6X8cmm stone to pass? My wife has 3 stones. One is 6X8 cmm and the other two are 5cmm. She just started taking Uriflow. But the Olive oil and Lemon Juice seem quicker. I'm just afriad the big stone might get caught in her ureter. Anyone passed any big stones using the olive oil and lemon juice and does this concoction break down the stones so they can pass. We are at our witts end since when you don't have insurance they make you comfortable, then kick you out of the ER. Thanks for any input."
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HOW TO USE HORSETAIL FOR KIDNEY STONES
05/12/2007: Glenda from Rappahannock County, Virginia writes: "I have a 4 mm kidney stone. My first. It hurt a lot on Sunday night into Monday morning but not since. The doctor said it had passed from the kidney into the ureter. Last night I drank one glass of the Lemon Juice/Olive Oil mix and then another this afternoon. Nothing yet. Also, a Bolivian friend gave me Horsetail. Does anyone know anything about using horsetail for kidney stones? If so I would like to read their experience here on the message board. Currently I am on Flomax, tons of water, the olive oil/lemon juice mix and sipping horsetail."
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LEMON/OLIVE OIL BEFORE STONES START TO TRAVEL?
04/30/2007: Janet from Upstate, New York writes: "I recently underwent a ct scan for pain that I have endured on my left side that I have had for a couple of months now. The result was multiple stones in my left kidney, one being of 5mm in size. I am totally "freaked" out as I have read much about kidney stones online and horror stories of those who have had them...(this is my first adventure with them) I saw a specialist last week, he said unless my pain level increases to "unbearable" there is not much that can be done and to drink tons of water which I have been. My question is...has anyone tried the lemon juice/olive oil before the stones have started to travel? and in their situation did it make the process a bit quicker..or should I wait until pain is "unbearable"?...For me the process of not knowing what to expect is what is making me most fearful...I work...and feel like a ticking time bomb with this. Thanks in advance for any help."
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HELP NEEDED
11/27/2006: Cassie from Edgewood, NM writes: "I have a 11 year old dd with a 2cm Kidney stone, we live in an area with hard water, we don't drink it, but I used it for cooking. We are using some herbal compounds from our Acupuncturist, but we need to dissolve them. She gets pain in her side (where the stone is) and has for years, our 'naturopathic dr' had told us it was worms, immune system, all sorts of stuff, we were in an auto accident and had X-rays to make sure everything was OK and discovered this stone. Any help would be deeply appreciated, I would like her to have some of her childhood painfree.. Thanks,"
Ted from Bangkok, Thailand replies: "Dear Cassie: Most people who do have kidney stones don't like fruit juices, especially lemon juice. To reduce the size of the kidney stones just drink plenty of lemon juice throughout the day. The citric acid will reduce the size of the stones. Taken every 2 hours. Whole lemon juice is required every time it is taken.
I always know before a kidney stones occur because my urine starts getting cloudy. When this happens I immediately take plenty vitamin B complex and take lemon juice or grape juice. The cloudiness of the urine goes away the next day. The key is to drink water, plenty of water, but not the kind of water you think. It is going to be distilled water so that the calcium will get dissolved faster.
One other way is to drink plenty of coke, which is not a particularly healthy way of doing so but it does get rid of kidney stones primarily as coke is very acid and contains phosphoric acid. Two liter of coke for the whole day might do fine in dissolving. But with 2 cm of stones it appears to take far longer as it is way too big, but certainly it will reduce the pain.
The best option is extracorporeal shock wave lithotripsy (ESWL) which uses sound waves to break the stones away and does not require surgery. For this 2 cm, this appears to be a safer and faster option.
Future prevention, just take plenty of baking soda plus citric acid to alkalize and this will neutralize the body from forming calcium stones. The daily dose is 1/4 teaspoon of baking soda and 1/4 teaspoon of citric acid to 1/2 glass of water as a preventive. Whether or not it works is simple: is the urine cloudy? The cloudy urine is a dead giveaway that the stones are forming in the kidneys. Vitamin B complex is another and so is vitamin C (ascorbic acid) in reducing and preventing kidney stones. "
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IF ALKALIZATION OF THE BODY CAN HELP DISSOLVE KIDNEY STONES
11/05/2006: Ben from Scottsdale, AZ writes: "Can Ted tell me if alkalization of the body and urine over time can reverse or help dissolve preformed kidney stones? Also,are there herbs that specifically "dissolve" kidney stones,regardless of their type or composition?"
Ted from Bangkok, Thailand replies: "Dear Ben: Alkaline diets usually prevent stones from forming by neutralizing the oxalic acid in our intestines from entering the blood. It might have limited ability to dissolve them, but they do get dissolved.
If the intestines have insufficient amount of bicarbonates to neutralized the oxalic acid, it quickly enters the blood and react with the body's calcium to quickly form calcium oxalate, which accumulates in the body rather quickly.
Unfortunately there are many kinds of stones, which makes it difficult to say with certain what you need to do to dissolve it. Some are stones formed by acid, some are by alkaline, there are struvite stones, calcium oxalate stones, uric acid and phosphate stones all due to imbalances of the body.
Assuming you know, which means your urinary pH is known, then you might have some fair idea of how to dissolve it if it doesn't get too big. Generally, acid urine can be dissolved by taking alkalizing diets or making your urine alkaline, and vice versa.
There is some instance of kidney stones being dissolved. In one case my friend tried drinking coke 2 liter for 2 bottle over the course of a day since coke has phosphoric acid. It will dissolve the calcium stones. Doesn't work every time, but seems to work in minor cases, if you caught it on early. Of course, over the long term, he too have to take sodium bicarbonates, potassium citrate in 1:1 ratio to alkalize his urine regularly.
If the body is high in uric acid, then in some cases taking just bicarbonates and plenty of water will remove most of the problem.
One reason I never have stones is before they do cloudy urine is often a sign. And by instinct I knew they were calcium in the urine causing it. So what I did was take plenty of vitamin C, vitamin B complex and some baking soda. The next day it was all normal.
While I cannot say what conditions you have, you can observe your own cloudiness of urine as a prevention, and who knows, if you can reduce its cloudiness that might also help reduce the stones size after a couple of weeks.
You just have to observe both the color of your urine and its cloudiness. The best way is to put it in a small clear cup so you can observe better. Then you will know whether your diets are too acid or too alkaline. Just remember, too yellow in a urine cup (instead of pale yellow) often means you don't drink enough water. A cloudy one indicates dietary imbalances: not enough b complex, vitamin C, etc.
One case I noticed a person who had excessively large stones. I knew that their dietary preferences was the cause. In that particular case, the person never liked consuming oranges, vitamin C, alkalizing diet (baking soda), and neither does he take vitamin B complex throughout his life. "
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LEMON JUICE AND OLIVE OIL
09/22/2006: Bruce from Toronto writes: "I have calcium oxylate stones. Had one out in 1984 and now have two in one kidney and three in the other. Largest is 4 mm. I was in for a shockwave treatment at the hospital yesterday. They hit it 3000 times the report says. They just went after the big one. thankfully I am in Canada so the medical expense is paid. However - before that I tired UriFlow. I would say it doesn't work on calcium phosphate stones. Personal opinion. Then I tired Chanca Piedra to no avail either. So - those of us with Calcium Phosphate stones wish we were oxylate stone formers. Now I am looking at the lemon juice and olive oil thing. If the lemon juice works on breaking apart the stones - maybe a person should wait to take the oil so they have some time to break down? any thoughts on that? I am due back at urologists in two weeks. Would love to be free of these by then. However, the prospect of passing 5 stones in a few hours is very daunting. AND what if this is yet another solution for the oxylate crowd! LOL . All the best, everyone."
Ted from Bangkok, Thailand replies: "Dear Bruce: You need to find a way to STOP any stones from forming in your kidney. The theory of stones formation is really simple. If you eat food rich in oxalic acid, the oxalic acid goes into your bloodstream, reacts with the body's calcium and becomes calcium oxalates in your kidney.
It is the same with calcium phosphates. Phosphoric acid enters the blood stream via the intestines or stomach, reacts with the body's calcium and it forms calcium phosphate.
The easy way to prevent calcium oxalates OR calcium phosphate from forming the first place, is to get the body with enough buffers to protect the acids from entering your body in the first place.
If the body's intestines have SUFFICIENT sodium bicarbonates, the sodium bicarbonate will react with oxalic acid to form sodium oxalate and these will excrete out in the feces instead of going into the blood stream as the buffer will neutralized them before such entry. The same is true for phosphoric acid, the sodium bicarbonate will react with it to form sodium phosphate and this will prevent the formation of calcium phosphate and will quietly rid from your body via the feces.
The trick is to take between 1/4 -1/2 teaspoon of baking soda twice a day. Once in morning and once in evening on an empty stomach. It takes a week for the body to have sufficient buffers and your body will no longer have stones.
As in all cases, excess calcium is also indicative of magnesium deficiency. SO you need to take both vitamin B6 and magnesium, so the body can properly utilize the calcium as well."
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IS THERE SUCH A THING AS BLADDER STONES
Jayde from Pittsburgh, PA writes: "I have been passing what I thought was kidney stones for over a month... lots and lots of stones. My urologist did an ex-ray of the kidneys and found no stones, however I am still passing stones. I have not had pain passing these stones and some are quite large. He has suggested I have a scope done on my bladder to see if these stones are coming from the bladder. Is there such a thing as bladder stones? Any suggestions as to what I might use to help my problem. I have been taking ACV in water 3xday for nearly two weeks. I have also tried the olive oil with lemon juice. Would these be helpful for the bladder?"
Ted from Bangkok, Thailand replies: "Kidney stones passes through the bladder. They are technically not called bladder stones. The best protection against future stones, is 1/4 teaspoon of baking soda taken twice a day every day. It takes two weeks at least to stop the body from leeching calcium from the bones or from intestines absorbing more acids than it needs. This should be taken as long as possible to prevent stones formation. This is a condition of acidosis. Magnesium allows the body to better utilize calcium better. So even if you do have it, it is probably means you once had it and it is simply draining out the stones that are left in it. If it is too small, sometimes X rays won't see it."
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HOW TO NEUTRALIZE THE ACID WITHOUT USING BAKING SODA
Ben from NY writes: "I am speaking for my mother who got diagnosed with a 0.6 cm stone (report can't tell how wide or deep). The same day she took the cranberry juice, her back pain eased up overnight. I don't know how to explain it. My question to Ted is (or anybody) , I am concerned with the acidity in her body caused by the Cranberry juice. How do you neutralize the acid without using Baking soda? I am afraid the Baking soda can make her Blood pressure to go up? Your advice appreciated."
Ted from Bangkok, Thailand replies: "Dear Ben: You can use potassium citrate and potassium bicarbonate as a good substitute for sodium bicarbonate. Unfortunately for potassium bicarbonate and potassium citrate is a bit harder to find for most people. And for home remedies, the use of common everyday ingredients is a must. If you don't mind finding something that is best for you then potassium citrate and potassium bicarbonate should prevent sodium retention.
In certain cases cranberry will dissolve stones by the virtue of it being acid. Acid can dissolve calcium carbonate stones too, and so does drinking 1 liter of coke which is high in phosphoric acid. However acid drinks will not prevent you from forming more stones and bicarbonates are good preventive by neutralizing the acid before it comes in your body and create oxalate stones. The issue of why stones form are many, but usually it depends on the type of stones. At other times, nanobacteria creates stones, and since cranberry is high in both mannose and sodium benzoate, those will kill the nanobacteria in your kidney, and the acid will dissolve certain kinds of stones too. Not every stones will dissolve them in acid it depends on certain kinds of stones.
Many other supplements will reduce sodium retention as it has diuretic properties, such as 200 mg. Alpha Lipoid Acid, 10 mg of lithium citrate, or even potassium bicarbonate is helpful too.
If I should have problems of blood pressure, I will take some 200 mg of Alpha Lipoid Acid. However, if I am in a hurry and wanted a stronger diuretic, then I would drink one cup of black coffee. I will urinate all day if I do this. "
04/21/2009: Willow from Coeur D Alene, ID replies: "Ted, It sounds like you have done extensive studying on this kidney stone problem. Are you a healer of sorts? I found your contributions to be quite informative.
I am howerver wondering about the bicarbonate. Am I understanding that bicarbonate blocks something in the system to keep the calcium from building up? If so, is that healthy? I had my first kidney stone 3 days ago and have been searching since to find answers on how to dissolve them as well as to keep them from forming. I have been doing a total system cleanse and believe this cleanse moved the stone so now I am horrified to continue the cleanse even tho I know it needs to be continued to remove any other ugly things residing in my body."
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